The Toronto Raptors Blog with an Arsenal touch

Mike Ulmer and his pointless interviews

Posted by Arsenalist on September 19, 2008

Been busy for a couple days, got something brewing. Wait for it, its good.

Let’s get to some Raptor talk. The official website’s interviewing Anthony Parker and Willie Solomon. We don’t learn much except that Will Solomon’s thinking the contract from the Raptors is a “gift from God”. He sure sounds like a scrub that’s just happy to be there, reminds me of Jamario Moon all over again. What I can’t get past is Anthony Parker getting excited to play alongside Willie Solomon and labelling him as “ready to contribute now”. Maybe he’s just being nice, Parker’s like that. We did get further confirmation of one thing from the two interviews and that’s that Mike Ulmer needs to be fired. Now.

Jermaine O’Neal’s been spending a lot of time in Vegas this summer, he was training there in August but September’s dedicated to having some fun. He’s hosting a strip poker tournament alongside Robert Horry and some other NBA players. So far the knee’s holding up.

How about Josh Howard dissing the US national anthem and citing his race as the reason. He sounds like he lost his home in Katrina or is listening to too much Kanye. I’m not saying the government’s been kind to black people down south but that reaction might be a bit much. There’s also talk of Stephon Marbury getting waived, a move that’s about three years overdue.

By far the best article this week has been Hoops Addict’s interview of Sam Mitchell where he talks about the development of Andrea Bargnani. Bargnani has to feel the pressure to produce along with O’Neal, both have a lot to prove this season and should be heavily motivated. Chris Bosh wants to follow up his great Olympics with a good playoff run and that should add fuel to his fire. I just hope all three come through by staying healthy, playing smart and avoiding choking. I’m actually confident that barring injury O’Neal will have a strong year and make the doubters of the trade eat their words, its the other two that I’m more concerned with.

Speaking of Bosh there’s a psycho-analysis of Bosh in Slam this morning where there are two points that come up, one which I agree with and one that I don’t. I think you’ll feel the same way. Point I agree with: Chris Bosh is not a true franchise player. Point I disagree with: Sam Mitchell is the ideal coach for Bosh. The article’s subconsciously reiterating a lot of the points Charley Rosen made a couple days ago but this time its padded with enough fluff and niceties to make it sound not so harsh.

Not since the summer we signed Davis, Williams and Carter has there been so much expected from a Raptors team, let’s just hope the results are better this time around.

More tomorrow.

79 Responses to “Mike Ulmer and his pointless interviews”

  1. fluxland said

    Arse.. c’mon! Enough with the teasing already! ;)


  2. Arsenalist said

    Flux, you’re too quick with the links man. I was going to link that story.

    As for the news, you’ll have to wait. It’s all good though.

  3. fluxland said

    Hehe.. just trying to contribute my man! :)

    I don’t know if the author was trying to say Sam is the ideal coach for CB4, but I would have to agree that he is not the wrong coach. And I agree CB4 is not a franchise player.

  4. Paps said

    Franchise player for sure. Bosh improves his game and leadership abilities every year.

  5. fluxland said

    Arse… Raps preview on SLAM as well.

  6. khandor said



    You sure packed a lot of info into just one entry. :-)

    IMO … you are doing a terrific job keeping the home fire lit for the Raptors during this off-seaon.

    Kudos to you!


    re: Sam Mitchell as the RIGHT coach for CB4

    IMO … Sam is a first-class human, first and foremost. FULL STOP.

    He is also a solid youngish coach who is improving every year and growing gradually into his profession, adding important attributes along the way.

    He, too … as he likes to say every now and then … is a work-in-progress.

    Personally, Sam Mitchell has my R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

    IMHO … however … Chris Bosh might/would have been further along the continuum toward reaching his maximum capability, as an NBA player, if he’d been coached by a different type of practictioner, in comparison with Sam Mitchell, as an NBA maestro.

    For example, if Chris had been fortunate enough to fall under the expert tutelage of a veteran head coach, with a well-fomulated, wholistic vision/understanding of How the Game Works, a this level … like a Red Auerbach, or a Red Holtzman, or a Bill Sharman, or a Pat Riley, or a Phil Jackson, or a Gregg Popovich … his capacity for ‘Consistent Excellence’ – beginning with Leadership, REBOUNDING, Shot-blocking, Team Defense, Passing, and his Role as ‘The Fulcrum of the Whole’ – would be further ahead than it is today.

    In no way should this opinion be taken as an indictment of Sam Mitchell … whose decisions I can disagree with on occasion … but whose reasoning I can almost always understand and accept completely.

    [Hint: IMO, Sam is a much better coach, in certain areas of the game, than many other NBA observers realize.]

    That said … from my POV, there’s still a big difference between saying a certain coach is a terrific person & a good coach who does a solid job with his team/players AND making the claim that this same individual is THE ‘right fit’ for a specific player to reach his full capabilities.

  7. Johnn19 said

    Chris Bosh is without doubt the Raptor’s Franchise player, at 24, a 3 time All Star after 5 years in the NBA. In the conversation as one of the best PF’s in the NBA (CBS Sports # 4 behind Duncan, Garnett,and Stoudemaire,)@ 22.3 ppg #10 in the NBA in scoring behind only Stoudemire’s 25.2 and Nowitzkis 23.6 among his peers @ PF. Mitchell has not done a bad job in encouraging Bosh to be the best he can be. He still has lots of room to grow to be the best, when Duncan and Garnett, who have an 8 year head start on him are in the old folks home.

  8. fluxland said

    All Star appearances are popularity contests. The NBA has to make sure there is Raptor involved in some capacity. And that scoring is more out of necessity then anything else. On any other team he’s just another body. There is very much doubt he’s a franchise player. Someone said it somewhere (prob.SLAM) .. he’s the face of the franchise but he is not the franchise player. If anything, by the way fans view Jose, that should be his tag.

  9. Arsenalist said

    khandor, thanks. I do what I can to help pass the offseason.

    Johnn, no doubt Chris Bosh is our franchise player. Nobody’s debating that, the question is whether he’s a franchise player or even a player at the same level as the other true franchise players in the league: Tim Duncan, Kobe, Chris Paul, LBJ, Garnett (I know, I know) and such. The answer is no, he’s not in that level. I think if there was a Tier 2 of franchise players, Bosh would fit right in.

    Flux, All-Star appearances are popularity contests but by no means does every team need to be represented. I think Bosh earned his ASG nods, granted it was a weak conference but you can’t take that away from him. It’s not like he go in there like Vince.

  10. fluxland said

    Arsenalist.. no, I doesn’t mean every team needs to be represented. But the NBA from a business point of view cannot afford not to have a Raptor (again) be involved in some capacity. Be it Rookie ASG, Dunk Contest, 3point shootout or what have you. I am sure the ownership group would not be pleased. I was going to bring up the Conference thing and there are plenty of guys in the East that could replace Bosh, but because he is the face of the franchise and (out of necessity) puts up those numbers he gets the nod. I just don’t like it when people use ASG appearances as an argument regarding a player.

    Like JO is a six time all star. Who gives a rats ass? He’s barley played the last few years, his team mates called him out for quitting on him and he has suspect knees. And now he’s involved in strip poker tournaments. But hey he’s a six time all star.. Raps no2 in the East.. twin towers… we are contenders and all that jazz. I’m waiting for him and his crew to get down with some shooting at a strip club in TO. But you know what? That’s cool because he’s a six time all star. Riiight.

  11. FAQ said

    Define: “Franchise Player” … and how it applies to Bosh.

    Thank you.

  12. Arsenalist said

    To me a franchise player has two main characteristics amongst others:

    1) He’s good enough to lead the team in the fourth quarter and can overpower opposition on a very consistent basis. He is the difference between winning and losing.

    2) Must be good enough that other top tier players will seek to play with him making the GMs job that much easier.

    There are not many who fit the above two categories and I’m sad to say that Bosh is not there yet. He’s a very good player but not a top-tier franchise player.

  13. fluxland said

    ^^ Yes, Sir! I’ll agree to that.

    I think CB4 secretly wishes he was on anther team where he didn’t have this tag, where he could just do his job and go home. The whole leadership role has been forced upon him and doesn’t seem to be enjoying it one bit.

    FAQ.. was in not you that said Chuck got canned for calling CB4 the franchise player of the Raps repeatedly? I assumed that you didn’t think he was and agreed it should have not been happening.

  14. Raps Fan said

    i don’t know that bosh doesn’t enjoy the leadership, he might not have all the tools to be a great leader, which could be an added stress on top of everything else he has to do for the team. a lot for a 24 year old in my book.

    i echo khandor’s kudo’s of you arse, bang up job this off-season!

  15. fluxland said

    Raps Fan… what do you mean? What else does he have to do for the team? It’s not like he has to do the marketing, accounting, run the concession stand and play handy man… I mean if the guy can make alter ego videos, play Halo, promote himself to get votes for the ASG, hand out advice on technological gadgets etc. surely had can handle the leadership, if he knew how no?

    I think he doesn’t enjoy it because he doesn’t know how to do it. Leaders are born not made. Although he may appear to have the tools, (and even if he does), he doesn’t know how to use them. Let’s not forget the calling out the fans then apologizing to the fans blunder. And I am not even going to get into the things he does on the court that appear forced and construed.

    All those are also reasons why he is not a franchise player and why I think he would be much happier on another team with players of same or better caliber where he wouldn’t have to eat the pressure. Hey, JO may help in taking that pressure this year and make things easier for Bosh, but then again he came out saying it CB4s team, so we’ll see.

    Oh and as far as age and comparison in regards to leadership see: Paul, Chris – NOH age 23. Born not made.

    Comment on SLAM: “There are a few deluded Raptors fans who insist that he is a franchise player…of course he is NOT..never has been, never will be.
    He played well in the Olympics because he was behind the best players on the planet.
    He plays well in Toronto…only well…he does not dominate and a franchise player has to dominate either with sheer talent, strength or personality.
    Bosh is the prototypical number 2 guy and the Raptors will never go anywhere as long as they rely on him as their best player.

  16. FAQ said

    Arsenalist Says:

    To me a franchise player has two main characteristics amongst others:

    1) He’s good enough to lead the team in the fourth quarter and can overpower opposition on a very consistent basis. He is the difference between winning and losing.

    2) Must be good enough that other top tier players will seek to play with him making the GMs job that much easier.

    The only NBA players that I can think of who approach this definition of “franchise player” are Kobe and LeBron .. and both are wing-guards. As for the big men, only Duncan and Nowitzki fit the definition somewhat. Who else would you add to this list? What about potential franchise players coming up?

  17. FAQ said

    How about a list of past ‘franchise’ players starting with MJ ….???

    Perhaps that might better help define the term.

  18. fluxland said

    Is it possible different people will have a different definition of the term? Or do we all have to agree on it? For the Raptors organization it just may be someone who sells merchandise, is involved in the community, produces mediocre number on the floor, has no off court drama.

    According to your definition: it’s players with the most talent and the ones that stand above and beyond their peers in that aspect. Chris Bosh would not fit that box.

    Kid Canada

    The Dream
    The Glove

  19. khandor said


    Given the two-pronged definition you provided in #12 …

    I would agree with your assessment that Chris Bosh, as is, does NOT fit into this specific category.

    However … so, too, would I suggest that … Chris Bosh DOES indeed have the tools to fit into this category, as defined by you … IF HE’D BEEN HANDLED DIFFERENTLY BY THE TORONTO RAPTORS SINCE BEING SELECTED WITH THE #4 (Overall) PICK IN THE HISTORIC 2003 DRAFT.

    IMO … Chris Bosh’s talents have been mis-identified and mis-used since his arrival, as a pro, in Toronto, and what could have been … given this young man’s unique set of strengths & weaknesses …

    * Chris Bosh’s strength … as a player and a person
    * De-constructing the mystery that is Chris Bosh

    has been largely wasted, to this point in time.

    Akin to certain other great NBA centers of the past … the fact is … Chris Bosh has the ability to dominate an NBA game, as a franchise player should, according to your definition, based on his ability to REBOUND the ball

    if in doubt of this, read the scathing critique written by Charley Rosen which PRAISES ‘this’ aspect of CB4’s game … which is a fine piece of basketball analysis, in its own right, on the whole, and should be mandatory reading for all who would like to understand how the game of hoops actually works in real life, i.e. see Uncle Charley’s takes on the overall importance of Rebounding & Defense; his assessment of ‘Dennis the Menace’; the keepers for the current Bulls; and, the Strengths & Weaknesses of Mo Williams …

    AND his Strength of Character … NOT based on his individual scoring!

    What you [and the rest of the world] just saw from Chris Bosh at the Beijing Olympics is indeed THE TYPE OF FRANCHISE PLAYER ‘could be’ for whatever team knows how to develop and use him properly in the NBA.

    Chris Bosh is still just 24 years old … and every single one of his seasons as a pro have been better than his previous one.

    As the #4 (overall) pick in the historic 2003 draft … CB4 is MOST DEFINITELY not a bust and has all the tools it takes to be a franchise player for his team in the NBA.

    The only question I have is …

    Will his authentic talents have wasted by those who’ve run the franchise in Toronto?

    … when all is said and done, and we look back in hindsight, at the panorama of his career, as the all-time best Raptor, 10-15 years from now.

    For Chris’ sake … I sure hope not.

  20. Dave said

    A team with one leader doesn’t have a hope in hell of winning. You need 4-6 leaders in your locker room. Chris Bosh can’t do everything, he needs more help.

  21. fluxland said


    You can’t teach someone to be leader and you can’t teach someone to take over games. You either got it or you don’t.

    To quote assistant coach Cowens from your Deeeetroit Bad Boyz v.20 (re: Amir J.), who put it perfectly “Amir does a lot of things you can’t coach and he can’t do a lot of things you can coach.”

    & the man in charge himself Coach Curry: ” …the game of basketball goes to the most aggressive teams and players…” a.k.a the ones that want in the most and will slap any team across the face when feeling threatened (in basketball terms).

    CB4 and Jose do not have those qualities as shown in the last two playoff exits vs. NJ & ORL. In fact, they fold, retreat and fail.

    Yes, I know, you are going to blame those exits on the coaching staff, but at some point that ends and the players that have IT and want it more, out of pure desire that translates to aggressiveness, make statements on the court that read :”I’ve had enough of this isshh, I am brining the hammer and throwing it down” Neither CB4 nor Jose do that when it matters the most.

  22. khandor said


    Although you may want to discount their respective acheivements with the USA & Spanish Men’s National Teams …

    When CB4 & El Matador ARE CAPABLE of being KEY PLAYERS for Olympic Games and World Championship winning teams … AND yet do not SEEM to be able to throw down the gauntlet, so-to-speak, in the way that’s necessary for their NBA team to triumph in the playoff cauldren … THEN that tells you all you need to know about the value/contribution of what both Dave & I have said thus far in this thread, to wit:

    i) from Dave … It takes a plethora of 1st-class players – relative to the competition – in order to have a legit shot at ever winning a championship; and,

    ii) from khandor … the tools of greatness are there, when you look with clear vision at exactly who Chris & Jose are, and what their situation has been like with the Raptors to this point in their careers … but, the $64,000 Question remains, “Can this organization bring/allow these aspects of their character to come out of them, as Team Leaders?”

    As it stands, right now … the NEXT PHASE in the journey for both CB4 & Jose – and MLSE, Bryan Colangelo, and Sam Mitchell, etc. – begins in earnest, in Ottawa, in 2 weeks time.

    “The proof of the pudding is [always] in the eating.” – Anonymous :-)

  23. fluxland said


    Chris’ need to be surrounded by the best basketball players on the planet to be successful only reinforces the fact that, in fact, he is not a franchise player.

    Jose saw very limited action during these Olympics (replaced by a player who is showing that he does have those qualities) and has had blunders with the Spanish team that resulted in losses. That team also “employs” numerous other players that potentially contributed far more to its success then “The Assassin” as you like to call him. Again, I am not sure what he has done in order to earn that nickname from anyone.

    Being a KEY PLAYER and FRANCHISE PLAYER are muy different. FRANCHISE players that posses the qualities Arsenalist mentioned have them prior to entering the NBA and are recognized by talent evaluators early in their careers. If CB4 or Jose had them there wouldn’t be a need for “Can this organization bring/allow these aspects of their character to come out of them, as Team Leaders?” or spending multiple years in another League “developing” them. AGAIN, leaders are not made they are born. I don’t know how you can “allow something to come out of them” when it’s not there.

    For you to expect BC or Sam to “teach” them those qualities is unrealistic, IMO.

    re:help.. it only reinforces the point I made in #15 3rd paragraph (and you are essentially making as well)

    Also, “FRANCHISE” players are usually people who obsess, eat, drink, sleep and work on their game 25/8/366/… they don’t make alter ego videos,play Halo, promote themselves to get votes for the ASG, hand out advice on technological gadgets, run forums and engage in whatever other activities to market themselves and be the “face” of the franchise. If they had “FRANCHISE” qualities.. their GAME would do that for them and would speak for it self.

    You either got it/get it… or you don’t.

  24. khandor said


    re: Being a KEY PLAYER and FRANCHISE PLAYER are muy different. FRANCHISE players that posses the qualities Arsenalist mentioned have them prior to entering the NBA and are recognized by talent evaluators early in their careers. If CB4 or Jose had them there wouldn’t be a need for “Can this organization bring/allow these aspects of their character to come out of them, as Team Leaders?” or spending multiple years in another League “developing” them. AGAIN, leaders are not made they are born. I don’t know how you can “allow something to come out of them” when it’s not there.

    Was Chauncey Billups a born Leader when he was a Celtic, or a T-Wolve, or a Raptor?

    Was Larry Bird a born LEADER when he first enrolled and then quit at Indiana University, under Bob Knight?

    ANSWER …

    Different Strokes for different folks … and, Different Horses for Courses, etc.


    re: You either got it/get it… or you don’t.

    IMO … your assessment of Leadership, per se, is NOT correct and overly simplistic.

    FACT IS … in REAL Life … REAL talent can go to waste each and every day … because others DO NOT see – for one reason or another – what’s there, right before their eyes.

    And, from my perspective, it’s a d*mn shame.

  25. fluxland said

    Also, I think we have established that the international game means very little when translating into the NBA. AP, Sarunas Jasikevicius, etc. etc.

    Come to think of it, I don’t think I have ever seen you criticize a player in regards to his skill and qualities. You seem to think all and everyones success and failure is a direct result of coaching/ poor coaching. It just never ever seems to be the players “fault”.

    Is this a bias you may hold since (I assume) you are/aspire to be a coach?

    Just me? OK then.. : )

    When are we going to see a “X player sux” post form you? It’s always celebrating the game and its best aspects/players/front office… or dissing the TO ownership group.

    Just me? OK then.. : )

  26. khandor said



    re: Also, “FRANCHISE” players are usually people who obsess, eat, drink, sleep and work on their game 25/8/366/… they don’t make alter ego videos,play Halo, promote themselves to get votes for the ASG, hand out advice on technological gadgets, run forums and engage in whatever other activities to market themselves and be the “face” of the franchise. If they had “FRANCHISE” qualities.. their GAME would do that for them and would speak for it self.

    Do you believe that Gail Goodrich, Mike Warren, Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, Keith Wilkes, Richard Washington, Marques Johnson, etc., would have become what they each became in Life without the tutelage of a man like John Wooden, and the unique perspectives on Life AND basketball he developed and shared with – i.e. MADE HIS PLAYERS UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT AS A WAY OF BEING IN THIS WORLD – his players at UCLA?

    Or, that Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Don Nelson, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Paul Silas, etc., would have developed likewise if they had been COACHED by someone other than Red Auerbach during the Celtics’ Dynasty?

    I think NOT.


    THE Main problem isn’t that Chris Bosh WANTED to do each of those things you listed … many of which I view the same way that you do! … BUT that as a young member of the Toronto Raptors HE WAS ALLOWED/NOT DISCOURAGED to do them by someone with authority from within this organization.

    IMO … if there’s a dirth of Effective LEADERSHIP in the Raptors’ organization … it does NOT originate from Chris Bosh.

    [Note: Chris Bosh’s sometimes questionable antics are a SYMPTOM of the DISEASE.]

  27. fluxland said

    U see? It’s never the players…

    It took CBills time to get his head straight and let go of the stubbornness regarding his game.

    Larry Bird left Indiana because school and studies stunk to high noon to him.

    Both are NBL because they were hard headed and convinced theirs it the right way.

    Leaders always butt heads with their coaches. They don’t their coahes pushing them in practice and forcing them to be leaders ala CB4 being forced to suicides..”I ain’t giving you nothing Chris Bosh”

    They didn’t need someone to hold their hand and show them them way.. because they were blazing their own path.

  28. fluxland said

    I am not in a position to comment on any of those players. And most have played half a decade ago. Different times, different era. I highly doubt any of them spent the amount of time working on their game or at least in the same fashion,with the tools available today, to perfect their game.

    Also the times of teaching players about life are long gone at the PRO level. Don’t bring a college coach into this. It’s apples and oranges just like the international game. Sure they all grow on trees, but taste completely different.

    re: Red – again different era and time… those guys played for change essentially – they were not MULTIMILLIONAIRES .

    It’s like comparing war in the cave ages and nuclear times… different weapons.. different strategies.

    And CB4 doesn’t come close to any of those guys in any way.

  29. FAQ said

    From: NBA Blogs – Sam Smith

    “And, who, after all, is going to give you(Ben Gordon) $10 million or more of saved cap room next summer when everyone is waiting for 2010 and LeBron, Wade and Bosh?”

    … and …

    “So if you are spending, you lock in Ben Gordon and pass on a chance for Wade or Bosh? LeBron is going to New York or New Jersey, as we know.”

    So now the U.S. NBA commentators are taking note of Bosh being a FA in 2010, and listing him with the likes of Wade and LeBron … go figure …!!!!!

    Will Bosh be bought for say $25Million p.a. … and will BC then demote JO and give the money to Bosh if he considers Bosh the Raptor’s “franchise player”???

  30. khandor said


    re: Also, I think we have established that the international game means very little when translating into the NBA. AP, Sarunas Jasikevicius, etc. etc.

    It’s not this at all.

    It’s a case of Horses for Courses … e.g. AP & Jasikevicius are examples of outstanding Euro pro’s who do not fit as Top Tier NBA players because of who they are as individuals with specific skill sets NOT just because the FIBA game, in general, doesn’t translate well to the North American environment.

    In sharp, sharp contrast …

    i) Arvydas Sabonis, at the apex of his prowess, back in the day, … would have been a DOMINANT FORCE in whatever league he played in, FIBA or the NBA; while,

    ii) Manu Ginobili, at the apex of his prowess, today … is a legitimate ALL-LEAGUE player whether he is in the Euro or the NBA.


    re: Come to think of it, I don’t think I have ever seen you criticize a player in regards to his skill and qualities. You seem to think all and everyones success and failure is a direct result of coaching/ poor coaching. It just never ever seems to be the players “fault”.

    Is this a bias you may hold since (I assume) you are/aspire to be a coach?

    Just me? OK then.. : )

    When are we going to see a “X player sux” post form you? It’s always celebrating the game and its best aspects/players/front office… or dissing the TO ownership group.

    Just me? OK then.. : )

    :-) :-) :-)

    In all my time on-line, thus far, you are the very first person who has ever levied the accusation against me … of being TOO POSITIVE in my approach, toward anything.

    But … I give you tremedous credit for having the insight and the patience to take the time to actually read the entirity of what I write, and your ability to keep an open, out-of-the-box mind-set toward me and my way thinking and presenting ideas, in general.

    YOU, my friend … have 20/20 vision … even though we may not always see eye-to-eye about some things, either in this world or, in hoop.


    1. Kicking someone when he’s down on his luck with a long & winding road ahead to make up the mountain … isn’t ‘the best’ way to be, IMO.

    While … taking down a few pseudo Kings, on the other hand … here and there, every once in a while … is a necessary function in DEMOCRATIC Life … or, at least, sayeth someone of true reknown, like Thomas Jefferson (I think? … therefore I am, or NOT), back in the day.

    2. Who we are each influenced by during the course of our individual journey plays a MAJOR role in the person/player we each EVENTUALLY become.

    Keep On Truck’n :-)

  31. khandor said


    re: Also the times of teaching players about life are long gone at the PRO level. Don’t bring a college coach into this. It’s apples and oranges just like the international game. Sure they all grow on trees, but taste completely different.

    When you’re dealing with a young man who came straight into the League after just his freshman season at Georgia Tech … it’s a case of ‘apples & apples’. :-)

  32. Sam said

    Good points from most of you, although I think fluxland is a little inflexible in his condemnation of Bosh and Calderon and disagree with khandor that every fault of the Raptors can be laid at the feet of those who didn’t hire whoever he says they were supposed to hire this week.

    I agree Bosh, while a very good player, isn’t a franchise player – i.e. someone capable of leading the team through his own combination of dominating play and leadership. Very few players are and I would say that Detroit won a championship and made a 2nd finals appearance without a franchise player. Bosh is a great #2 and that leads to another question that has to be answered before 2010: does Bosh know this and would he be more comfortable somewhere where he does not have to masquerade as the man?

    The more I think of it the more I think rational Raps fans should worry a bit about Bosh joining his friend Lebron in either Cleveland (which I could live with) or New Jersey/Brooklyn (that would be tough to swallow). There ain’t much fans can do about this but anyone with half a basketball brain (that means me) can see how awesome a Lebron-Bosh combo could be. Oh, and did anyone catch Lebron’s interview on CBC’s the Hour. He’s friends with Bosh and seems to have a very high opinion of Bosh and his game. I’m just saying . . .

  33. khandor said


    Although there is much about Larry Brown which I do not like or agree with … it is my opinion that … one Chauncey Billups does NOT become the player he’s become today without the benefit of one Lawrence Harvey Brown coming into his life, at precisely the right moment in time.

    re: Also the times of teaching players about life are long gone at the PRO level.

    IMO … despite being an NBA player for a number of years, he still needed to be ‘coached’ by a person with Larry Brown’s insight into the game in order for Chauncey’s authentic ability – which he always had inside him – to surface as a BIG TIME player and Team Leader in the NBA.

    If Larry Bird had not found his way to Indiana State and the influence of Bob King & Bill Hodges …

    [an excerpt from Bird’s story at]

    Bird received a basketball scholarship to Indiana University in 1974. However, he was overwhelmed by the size of the campus and number of students and, as he would later admit in his biographies, wasn’t mentally ready for this stage of life. Bird was also treated poorly by an established IU star, Kent Benson; as Bird recalled, the other upperclassmen of the team treated him well.[5] He dropped out of Indiana, went home to French Lick, and worked for the Street Department (the department did pick up garbage once a week, but also repaired roads, removed snow, mowed lawns, etc.) for a year.[6]

    [Does this sound to you like a mentally tough player, at that time?]

    there is absolutely no telling if the great player the world would eventually see playing for the Sycamores and the Celtics would have ever come to light.


    PS. If it’s a bias on my part to believe that the actual ‘coaching’ [mentoring] we each get [or don’t get] in Life plays a significant part in who it is we each eventually become … then so be it. That’s a specific charge I can live with easily. :-)


    Chauncey Billups is a franchise player. :-)

    re: disagree with khandor that every fault of the Raptors can be laid at the feet of those who didn’t hire whoever he says they were supposed to hire this week.

    1. It’s a people business … and, in an organization, questions of success and failure SHOULD always be traced back to those responsible for providing the LEADERSHIP to that organization, from the top down.

    * MLSE Board of Directors
    * Vice-President of Basketball Operations/GM
    * Assistant GM
    * Head Coach
    * Coaching & Support Staffs
    * Players

    It’s a simple/complex hierarchy … and the players, for the most part, get far too much of the credit when things go well and the blame when they do not.

    2. I might be wrong about this but, it’s my perspective that, MY position on the Raptors’ current problems really hasn’t waivered very much over the past few seasons, re: MLSE. :-)

  34. fluxland said

    Sorry.. late reply.. had to step out for a few.

    Khandor, I know you know (and if you don’t) that I tremendously RESPECT you, even though, like you said we don’t see eye to eye all the time. Sorry if anything I said sounded as if I were “attacking” you. I know you probably didn’t take it that way, still feel it should be said. Thanks for the compliment in 30.

    Mentions of Aryvdas in any discussion brings a smile to my face. *tear* The fact he played, in the NBA, at the end of his career is a complete and total travesty.

    Manu is a slight exception to the norm, yet he had a hard time adjusting to the game initially, and ultimately prevailed mostly due to his reckless, crash test dummy type play, and yes other things but predominantly that. The same play that cost them further success this years. Canes and jello anyone? ; P . Also, never been an all-star. (Hmmm…??)

    Who’s getting kicked? And who’s down? If anything CB4 and Jose are at the top of the world right now. CB4 has been made into a superhero in the US and Jose got the keys to the franchise handed to him, got TJ traded and got PAID. I don’t know what else either of them need in order to feel any better, then they may right now. I just call’ em like I see ’em … as you say: thus far.

    CBills – yes, he his skill and talent had to be “channeled” properly. Larry Brown came in an put the finishing touches on something that was already there. He didn’t have to “bring something out of him” that wasn’t there – as you believe is the case with CB4. I just don’t think dude has it. His body language and behaviour speak volumes to me. (I realize we have different lenses on)

    Re: BIrd. From the book “Larry Bird: An Indiana Legend” … “Larry Bird, a freshman basketball recruit at Indiana University, has left the campus and apparently will not be returning. Coach Knight reported that an uncle of Bird said the 6-7 forward from Springs Valley thought the university was too big and class work will be more then he wanted to do.” And we know how Mr. Knight feels about academics.

    Mental toughness on the basketball court doesn’t mean one is mentally tough in life or off the court. Or the other way around. To me there IS telling, a good percentage of the time, because 1st impressions are for the most part a tell ALL. MJ hit that shot at NC and did so for the majority of his career. KG always chokes and always will. Jose botched that play vs NJ. AP chockes EVERY SINGLE fourth q, unless the team is in the lead. CB4 and Jose both chocked in Orlando.

    @P.S. – agreed to an extent. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. No amount of coaching or guidance will ensure a player does what needs to be done when the situation requires it.


    FAQ – I am not sure why you like looking so far into the future. The US is d**k riding Bosh right now because he played well against international players- PA -LEASE! Even Kahndor’s boy Charley “LBJ will be an average player at best ” Rosen said he had his best games against the worst teams. Oh yeah, can I buy more of that stock? And let’s not forget that by then all 3 of those guys could suffer career ending injuries and their stock will drop like a stone.


    Sam, I am only “blasting” CB4 and Jose, as some are interpreting, because in my eyes they are fools gold. They have done nothing to deserve all this over the top praise. Call me crazy, but two 1st round exits in a row, to teams that others considered weak, do not amount to all the stuff that is being said. Now, I am still keeping my eyes open and waiting to be proven otherwise. It is what it is, playa! Until then, rest assure I will be supporting this team to the max come opening night.

    re: Pistons. Khandor beat me to it, but when you look at that group of players it is undeniable that CBills was the leader. Yes, they played really well as a team and everyone contributed. But when the chips were down, when they needed to regroup out there on the floor, he was the one making shots, pulling everyone together and making sure the ship didn’t start to sink. FRANCHISE player NO DOUBT!!

  35. fluxland said

    Also, Sam, I co sign with Khandor on 2. in #33. MSLE (emphasis on Entertainment in that abbreviation) has done NOTHING in regards to bringing this team to serious contender status, as promised by BC, over the last few seasons. It’s like that guy at work, you know? Always running around, shuffling papers on his desk, making phone calls, sweating like he’s running a marathon but actually accomplishing nothing concrete or value to your team or company.

    Prove me wrong, Raptor players, prove me wrong please!!

  36. khandor said


    No intent to suggest that YOU are someone who enjoys kicking a fallen friend or foe.

    On the contrary, actually, as far as that’s concerned. :-)

    Tried only to give you an explanation as to why the majority of MY on-line contributions might indeed be viewed accurately as, “No Fault-auto insurance” policies, as far as authentically talented players and/or coaches are concerned. :-)

    My plea is … “Guilty as charged” … to a bias of this type.

  37. fluxland said

    Sorry.. I see the flow of the response now. My fault. : ) LOL @ “No Fault- auto insurance policies” :))

  38. fluxland said

    Anyone else feel like Arse is pulling their chain with this “something’s brewing” followed by “Wait for it”. ? It’s been going on for weeks now!! I swear there better be a supermodel or cash falling out of my screen sometime soon. ;P Just messing with you Z!!

  39. khandor said


    One of the concepts I think some have difficulty understanding in a discussion like this is the notion that there can actually be different types of FRANCHISE PLAYERS.

    I think someone may have alluded to this earlier in the thread.

    Kudos to that individual!

    Take the cases for Lebron James and Kevin Garnett.

    IMO … there is NO DOUBT whatsoever that both these young men have indeed been FRANCHISE PLAYERS since their respective arrivals in the League.

    One has yet to win a NBA Championship … and, indeed, might never accomplish the feat.

    The other was the butt of countless jokes during his tenure in Minnesota, for repeateded choking, and the like … and, even this past season when the Celtics won it all, was still claimed by some to NOT have been ‘the straw that stirs the drink’ for their team, given the presence, role and function of Misters Pierce & Allen in Boston, this season … which was patently inaccurate in my judgment, even though I may have been one of the first NBA observers to suggest that KG is not the type of FRANCHISE PLAYER who can/should be taking last minute/pressurized shots for his team – because he does not succeed enough in these types of situations to fulfil this function for his team … especially, when both PAUL PIERCE & RAY ALLEN DO!

    In my book … Lebron and Garnett are both FRANCHISE PLAYERS.

    They are simply different kinds of the same fruit … the best in the yard.

    Lebron James … is a Facilatator & a Scorer, first and foremost … a Rebounder, next … and a Defender, as a mere after-thought … except, of course, when he is supremely motivated, in this regard, for example, by playing alongside a ‘Tasmanian Devil’ like Kobe Bean Bryant. :-) When LBJ gets on a role … he is physically, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to stop.

    Kevin Garnett … is an exceptionally HIGH ENERGY player, first and foremost … a Rebounder, next … then, a supreme Team Defender … a sublime Individual Defensive match-up nightmare for multiple positions on the court, all at once! … and a first-class Facilatator, during crunch time. When he’s at the HEART of a talented team of players … that group of men is going to be exceptionally difficult to beat … UBUNTO!!!

    Both are FRANCHISE PLAYERS of the highest order … IMO … but each is very different from the other …

    and, yet, neither one is the crunch-time SCORER/FACILATATOR SUPREME that was Michael Jordan, or his current ‘son-of-Krypton’ protege, Kobe [son of Jelly] Bean Bryant …

    none of whom could hold a candle to the Great Man, himself, Mr. Bill [Russell] … who was SO GOOD, as a Franchise Player of Herculian Order that he didn’t even NEED TO SCORE THE BALL at all [almost] for the teams that CAPTAINED to capture 11 NBA Championships in 13 years, wearing the Celtic Green.

    That my friends … is the epitome of being THE greatest Franchise Player of All-time.


    IMO … Chris Bosh has the makings of a Franchise Player … just not the exact same ‘kind’ as men like ‘the Big Fundamental’, KG, D-Wade, C-Bills, Kobe, Captain Planet, Dirk, CP3, J-Kidd, T-Mac, Yao, D12, and Shaq (in his hey-day), etc.

    Strokes for folks; and, Horses for courses.

  40. khandor said


    I think Arsenalist has a really BIG move planned with this here web site … and he is waiting to have all his ducks lined up in a row before he unleashes the change on the blogosphere!!!

    Maybe, like … hooking up his considerable talents with a different type of operation than he’s been able to secure for himself/his site … until now!

    Whatever’s coming the pipe, Arsenalist … I KNOW already that it’s going to be even better than GOOD! It’s going to be terrific!!! :-)


    Just like when you’ve been forced to wait a long, long, long time for …

    :-) :-) :-)

  41. khandor said

    I laughed out loud at … “cash falling out of my screen”. :-)

  42. Dave said

    I thought Chris Bosh played very well in the Orlando series.

    He led all scorers at 24ppg, scoring efficiently as normal, he took it right at whatever defender was guarding him especially Dwight Howard. He consistently looked for the ball. His passing was good and he got his teammates involved. Defensively he was good too, which more people would have noticed if Orlando wasn’t getting so many open lanes to the rim from lousy perimeter defense. Rebounding was solid, could/should have been better, but was solid.

    Jose Calderon did not play well in the playoffs (defense was atrocious and he didn’t step up as a scorer despite the team desperately needing him to). He was very disappointing. I think he’ll do better without that TJ/Jose situation, with more regular minutes and responsibilities though. I thought both players (TJ was just as poor if not worse) underperformed because of that situation and will do better in the future.

  43. fluxland said

    Khandor, are you referring to #18? I am not trying to gloat ..just asking.

    I agree with what you are saying. And at # 18 I was trying to say that every franchise may have different goals when it comes to running their business. Hence, each goal may require a different type of FRANCHISE PLAYER. And the goal may vary from year to year as well.

    Also, I think, for the most part people associate FRANCHISE PLAYER to what Arsenalist described. Including as you said and MOST IMPORTANTLY (IMO) : can/should be taking last minute/pressurized shots for his team.
    Does all that great work count during 3 1/2 or 3 3/4 quarters when you don’t deliver when required the most? You can pull all the defensive stops you want – you are still going to have to score the ball, as most contests are decided in seesaw moments or stretches of the game when the score is tied or varies by one point. You need a guy that delivers that demoralizing bucket.. because sure you stopped me.. but can you make me pay now?

    While in Minnesota KG may have fit the FRANCHISE tag in the form of Mr. BiIl, in the sense that he took care of everything so well that he didn’t /wouldn’t have needed to score the ball, but the knock there was that he was never surrounded with the right players to take advantage of all of his non scoring abilities. So he never lived to the FRANCHISE PLAYER- wlll win chips bill, rather FRANCHISE PLAYER -will sell tickets aka false hope aka fools gold aka all hype no substance aka Chris Bosh (ok, maybe)

    However, KG lost that tag once in Boston because he was now playing with someone who could do all those things (maybe not as well) as well as (again more importantly) score the ball in crucial moments of the game. This was confirmed by this individuals reception of the Finals MVP trophy. We know KG faded in 4th throughout the playoffs, that the Ray Allen we knew went MIA for a good portion of the playoffs, while the Truth stayed true and delivered dagger after dagger when the ship looked like it was going to sink (in the face of MJ v.2.0). THAT is a FRANCHISE player. The same guy that carried his team to the ECF one year – something KG couldn’t do without the help of The Carlesimo Strangler aka I Can’t Feed My Kids On That Chump Change and the help of Big Ball Dance aka The Alien aka I Played With The Dream.

    So, LBJ and KG are both FRANCHISE PLAYERS depending on what your goal/situation is.

    Re: Bill – IMO, it is impossible if not unfair to compare Bill Russell to anyone. Unfair to him and them. The man revolutionized the game. He IS the GAME. And players will come along that APPEAR to have his qualities yet will never ever come close to what he had done.

    NOW.. LBJ. LBJ MAY come close to that. LBJ has already rewrote the record books.. he carried a team of my local gym rec players to the NBA Finals by single handedly STEAMROLLING a team of future HOF. When you watch him play you could even say this guy hasn’t even tapped into his potential. It seems he is playing at 50% all the time .. like he’s holding back. One fears what this man could do if he UNLEASHED and stopped restraining himself. He’s a football player playing basketball .. the REVOLUTION 2.0 may be unfolding before us. And he’s only 23!!! He should be in his 2nd year right now. All that in comparison to CB4 and then calling them both FRANCHISE PLAYERS? Sure if one is F.P. wins chips and the other is F.P. sell tickets.

    Yeah, I was just buggin him… ;P I know he would let the cat out of the bag until he gets the trick right.

  44. fluxland said


    regarding Bosh. Sure that’s great… and I will give him the Dwight matchup because the man is a beast. But he was also part of the group that took 24 minutes to score a bucket during multiple games. Or dug holes do try and come out of. He also shot the ball in those key moments during the games and FAILED.

    And yeah I am going to hear how Sam played with the starting line up and uses on plays.. but when does that line end and players take over and DELIVER??

    Unlike Khandor who says : the players, for the most part, get far too much of the credit when things go well and the blame when they do not, I think the former is true while the latter (blame) goes directly towards the coaches. Even if the blame is mentioned towards the players, there is a clause in there that trickles it down to the coaches. Who gets fired at the end of the season? Coaches not players.

    I’m going to play some tennis, catch you guys in a few hours.

  45. khandor said


    Tennis? Tennis?

    You’re going to play Tennis?

    With a yellow ball? … and, a horizontal net?

    That’s your … excuse?

    Well … let me tell you something, pal … that’s just nowhere nearly good enough for the rest of us here, and now!!!

    You think you can just blithely violate Arsenalist’s Raptors’ Blog Participants Rule #32? … Well, bub … you’ve got another thing coming your way …

    In fond memory of Tony Trabert, Bud Collins, Pancho Gonzales, Ken Rosewall and Rod Laver.

    Enjoy yourself, my compadre, whatever your racket may be …

    “Life is fast; and, things change quickly.”Derek Fisher

  46. khandor said

    Or, is that Rule #19? :-)

  47. fluxland said

    And a racquet as well!!

    Thanks for the videos those are great!! : )

    Back as promised a few hours later.

    Also Vitas Gerulaitis, – the world is not the same without you and we miss you RIP Sir!


    re: #42…(out of curiosity) who would you prefer on your team? Jose or TJ?

  48. Arsenalist said

    Re: 40 and khandor,

    I hate to disappoint you but its nothing that crazy. In the future maybe, but in the near future let’s call it an “improvement” :)

  49. Dave said


    I don’t have a preference between TJ and Jose. Both players are quite different but have comparable overall impact.

    I’m looking forward to seeing TJ with the Pacers. The guy is a pure winner, he’s going to have Indy humming as high a beat as possible next year. I had Toronto in the playoffs the minute they landed TJ (I thought it was a great trade), Indy have a tougher road but he’ll have them in the running for that final playoff spot.

  50. fluxland said

    OK, but if it were YOUR team and you HAD to pick one for a winner takes 1 million dollar prize?

  51. Dave said

    Been sitting here typing an answer, and deleting the answer, and typing and deleting …. I don’t know.

    I literally would be happy with either/or. Normally in this situation I’d rather the team to trade the player with better trade value, but Jose was a free agent which muddied that opportunity.

    Hmmm ….. I’ll roll with Jose because TJ’s injury history. But I’d be equally be happy with the decision going the other way.


    It’s a rare day when I can’t muster an opinion on a basketball matter, but I really don’t see any substantial difference in the selection here. Equally happy with either one staying/going.

  52. khandor said


    re: #50

    I’ll let Dave answer that one for himself, but …

    if I ALSO get to choose the other 4 players to go with the PG I select, between a choice of TJ or Jose …

    I think you know already which one is a no-brainer pick for me. :-)


    IMO … an elite level team can win a NBA Championship much easier if it have a stable PG with good size, average strength & quickness, a great ASSIST:TURNOVER, who shoots a solid percentage from the field, behind the arc, and from the charity stripe … WHEN you ALSO get to choose the four players who play beside him [which is the case in the NBA, where you can sign any player in the world who isn’t under contract already with another organization];

    than you can if you have an erratic [even if, at times, spectacular] PG w/o good size, a great ASSIST:TURNOVER, who shoots a mediocre percentage from behind the arc, and gets hurt rebounding/defensively [on switches, traps, cover downs, post-ups, etc.] by his diminutive stature.

    An elite level team in the NBA does not NEED a spectacularly good PG to win a League Championship, if it assembles a talented group of men around a solid player/person, at this key position … see as prime examples, the Celtics/2007-2008, the Heat/2005-2006, the Lakers with D-Fish, the Spurs with Avery Johnson, the Rockets with Kenny Smith, the Bulls with Ron Harper & John Paxson, the Celtics with Gerald Henderson, the Supersonics with Gus Williams, etc., etc., etc.

  53. fluxland said

    Dave, not sure if it would have made a difference, but perhaps I should have added a one game only, or game 7 in a playoff series scenario.

    Khandor, of course, I had a pretty good idea of where you stood. : ) And I understand your rationale. The one thing that (I don’t think) you take into consideration is CLUTCH play. As I was alluding to in the FRANCHISE PLAYER discussion, being efficient in the categories you mentioned, is great and all but does it mean much when you can’t deliver during the most crucial moments of the game? (also, how do you measure HEART?)

    I don’t know how TJ makes the NBA under your criteria for a successful PG in the NBA. Speed only? Also I thought a rebounding PG is not a pre-requisite for success and Jose is not a defensive machine either.

    I tend to think like Dave until CLUTCHness (?) is accounted for and then there is no discussion for me. TJ proved countless times (and many fans forgot after his injury) that he does have it. He proved it during his collegiate career and with the Bucks. Jose? Not even close…(thus far I suppose, but again 1st impressions are a tell all in this corner)

    Of course I realize it is dependent on the other 4 players on the team, as you brought up, but I suppose we can you use the Raptors roster for the sake of discussion.

  54. Dave said

    No, it doesn’t make a difference.

    Ithink Jose is a good guard under pressure, late in games I mean, he plays with good composure and regularly gets his team good shots/possessions. Statistically he scores more (than normal) and at a higher clip at the end of close games. From an anecdotal side of view, he’s also had several quality performances against good defensive squads like Boston or New Orleans late in games. I think he is a clutch player.

    I just don’t think Jose is good enough to be the main go-to scorer/playmaker down the stretch on a true contender, he just isn’t comfortable enough as a scorer. I wouldn’t blame Jose over that, because he’s never shown that capability so expecting it is unrealistic, it’s a roster problem. The Raps need someone else to fill that roll, and I’d say the same if TJ (although TJ has more of a scoring mindset) was still here. Calderon will also do better if he can play off of another playmaker as a shooter/secondary playmaker.

  55. fluxland said

    Regular season performances are not really a great indicator of success in the playoffs. We know some players play better when THE SHOW comes around, while others regress.

    Also, the PG position usually plays a major part in some way (distributing/scoring) during deciding moment of the game. Jose has not done enough during the last two rounds to earn my trust in being able to handle the responsibility.

    This year, it appears he will be handling the majority of minutes during the season and come April, IF the Raps make the show… I don’t know if he will have enough in him to help this team accomplish its goals.

  56. FAQ said

    flux … the past Raptor teams with TJ and JC were getting confused with the different styles of play from the PG position, and that was so obvious when Mitchell made the substitutions. Sometimes it worked but mostly it was too disorientating for the other players. That’s what I saw, and the coaching staff found this to be too risky, ergo BC pulled the trigger on TJ and went with the more consistent Jose. Nothing complex or confusing about the decision … just finalizing the PG situation.

    Wasn’t it Jose who said he didn’t mind coming off the bench to stabilize the team after it all got away from TJ??? Jose is an experienced bball player and he saw the problems with TJ, so he just accomodated the coaching staff by not starting. When TJ was playing well, Jose cheered him on, but when Jose was controlling the play, TJ just sat there moping or sneering.

    TJ proved to be a head case(pun not intended) after his most recent neck injury, and he never really came back to form, mentally or physically. I wish him well in Indiana and will follow his career with interest.

    This edition of the Raptors is still in development phase, and only an entertainment product for the Raptor fans. The rest of the NBA will probably not bother to watch the visiting Raptors because the NBA is an American-first league of athletes. I hope the Raptors can kick some ass and again end up in the playoffs, but after that …?!

  57. fluxland said

    FAQ, true…we all see different thing out there on the floor.

    I always viewed having two different style type PGs as an asset and threat to other teams facing us. I remember the duo being touted as a deadly combination by the “experts” and NBA community. Disorientating to our players? Perhaps. Sad, actually. I realize I am not a professional basketball player, so how able one is to adjust to different styles, I don’t know; but it’s strange to me that they would have trouble with that. Again, I was hoping other teams would find it disorientating and that would be an advantage to us. (seemed to work the year before, no?)

    Yes, Jose was playing Mr. Nice Guy as people like to think by being accommodating, but that came at a price. Remember the “I took care of the Raptors, they better take care of me”? It’s funny how players speak/act differently with their “home” media and the country of employment press. If you understand(stood) Spanish
    and you read the interviews he gives there, you would come away with a totally different impression of the guy, believe me (Recall the slanted eye incident? You think he would pull that here? Just as an example)

    Also this “accommodation”, to me, is not a good sign. As opposed to TJs digruntledness (?). Jose’ accommodation and stand down when being barked at by the opposition are not signs of someone who will do what needs to be done when confronted with pressure situations aka moments of truth aka crucial moments of the game. It shows a weakness, UN peacekeeping mentality and I expect him to curl up in the fetal position when the game is on the line, like he has during the last 2 playoff rounds. TJ, on the other hand, the disgruntled PG that became the AntiChrist in TO, doesn’t back down from anything or anyone. You surely remember many of pictures with that bulldog face he gets on. This is someone I want on my team.

    And it’s funny how quickly everyone forgot about what TJ had done for this team the year before or prior to his injury. Everyone was happy, the duo was firing at all cylinders, there was no problems. ( division chip, COY, EOY) But as soon as TJ went down and Jose filled in (doing his job like he’s supposed to) it became F that TJ MF! Who is that effing guy? It’s funny too, how Jose started grumbling (in whatever way shape or form) regarding staring, the year he was becoming a free agent. He manipulated the situation to perfection with the fans and media while making (with their help) TJ look like the team cancer. A sing of pure (PDiddyed) BITCHASSNESS. Seriously, I could write a whole article on that whole situation, but enough for now.

    “When TJ was playing well, Jose cheered him on, but when Jose was controlling the play, TJ just sat there moping or sneering.” I am not sure how many games you watched but this is categorically untrue. 1. There were many of times TJ cheered Jose on and gave him pointers during timeouts. 2. The times you say he sat there moping or sneering – (a) you have no way of knowing if he was upset at himself and his play or, I dunno what, jealous of Jose.

    Again, people are only choosing to remember the post injury history and have swept everything else under the carpet. Short memories, eh?

    I agree, and I have been saying it all along. This team has been in development phase since 1993. It doesn’t matter what this team does during the season, THE SHOW is all that matters. The roster has been retooled drastically, the PG position took a major hit and I am expecting problems before success.

  58. Dave said


    I consider the past two seasons to be an incomplete picture, in terms of playoff performances by Jose Calderon. He was the backup the first time, and then the quasi-starter/backup against Orlando with the whole TJ/Jose issue bothering both players considerably. I wouldn’t read too much into it, I think it’s premature, wait for this coming season to play out.

    Like I said, I’d want Jose to be my second best perimeter player in crunch time … or at least be surrounded by better weapons on the perimeter. In other words, the Raps still have a lot of work to do on their roster.

  59. fluxland said


    I guess everyone has different expectations from different players. It’s funny how Jose gets all the slack in the world, he could never do any wrong. But Andrea gets thrown under the bus after one mediocre year.

    You are right, and as I mentioned before, this year will really tell us who the real J.C. The keys to the franchise are his, TJ got traded, the contract he was looking for has been handed down, JO and Bosh with a few shooters are here. THE TIME FOR EXUSES IS OVER – IT IS TIME TO SHUT UP AND DELIVER.

  60. khandor said

    Although Dave and I might seem to disagree about a few things here and there … when he makes astute observations like this one:

    “Like I said, I’d want Jose to be my second best perimeter player in crunch time … or at least be surrounded by better weapons on the perimeter. In other words, the Raps still have a lot of work to do on their roster.” – Dave

    it reminds me why I think he has one of the keenest set of eyes I’ve seen (and read) yet writing on the internet.

    To that specific quote, ^^^, right there … I say, “Bingo!”


    IMO … whoever is expecting Jose Calderon to lead this team, as presently configured, deep into the NBA playoffs, is sadly mistaken.

    [and, Flux, for one, knows already just how much I think there is to like/appreciate about JC’s individual game]

    IMO, El Matador is the type of top notch NBA Point Guard who you can put with other quality players and go deep into the playoffs with … BUT the team’s Management Team actually needs to put those other 7-8 high calibre players on the roster … AROUND him, in the positions they need to play in order to win big.

    To this point, I do not see THAT happening here.

  61. fluxland said

    Mutoni on SLAM today writes about what I am looking for in a player and what I think Jose lacks while TJ has it.
    And oddly enough it’s J.C. countryman that he speaks of.

    ***Still, there’s something else there; something other than just a lackadaisical approach to defense. Pau Gasol strikes me as the type of athlete who’s blessed with a ton of skill, but lacks that special DNA ingredient that separates the very good players from the immortals. An edge if you will.

    Part of being a great NBA player, a rather large part actually, is the inner (and outer) belief that you are the baddest motherf*cker on the floor. Swag, confidence, cockiness, arrogance. It may not win you too many sportsmanship awards, but it’s absolutely necessary if you plan on separating yourself from the pack. ***

  62. khandor said



    Q1. Which Points Guards in the great History of the NBA have had the type of attitude being described in that passage, ^^^, right there?
    A1. NONE.


    Great scorers … Yes.

    Great PG’s … NO.

    You are mixing apples & oranges … if/when you try to make that comparison. :-)


    On the other hand …

    Q2. How many wannabee, think-they’re-great-but-are-actually NOT … pseudo, Point Guards have there been in NBA history?
    A2. TOO MANY to possibly count. :-)

    Q3. Into which of these two categories does TJ Ford fit?
    A3. You can decide THAT for yourself.


    IMO … that passage there DOES NOT describe accurately the sort of SUPREME CONFIDENCE with which MEN like …

    Magic Johnson
    Oscar Robertson
    Bob Cousy
    Isiah Thomas, and
    John Stockton

    have played the game of basketball, at the POINT GUARD position.

    Michael Jordan … Yes.
    Larry Bird … Yes.
    Kobe Bryant … Yes.

    But not those Point Guards.



    The history of the NBA shows us that … an elite level team, definitely DOES NOT NEED to have a PG with THE ATTITUDE described in THAT ^^^ passage, right there.

    [NOTE: I’m not going to bother supplying the ‘starter’s list’, again. :-) ]

  63. fluxland said

    Khandor, we are nit picking here a little aren’t we?

    I did have Zeke in mind. And I am sorry that passage doesn’t describe exactly what you have in mind when talking about SUPREME CONFIDENCE, if that’s how you choose to describe the IT factor. I am sure you can tell, Mutoni, didn’t have the easiest time describing it either. He used some words to give us an idea.

    I believe you have to have those “qualities” even as a PG in order to succeed and prevail in the NBA playoffs, even if you are not the volume scorer for your team.

    Bottom line, IMO, Jose does not have them.

    Yes, of course, this is all based on the roster and therefore when you discard TJ (one that does have IT, IMO), hand the franchise keys to Jose, hand him down the contract you did, consider it will now be impossible (I think) to bring in anyone else of high caliber over the next two years and again look at roster, you have to think that someone believes Jose does have IT. And again, I disagree.

  64. khandor said


    IMO … the IT which Jose HAS is the IT which Jose has.

    When I look over the many different types of PG’s on the following web page, in the “Champion” column … I see unique players who are, for the most part, quite dis-similar to one another.

    The two traits which most share, however, IMO, are:

    i) Sound decision-making with the ball in their hands; and,
    ii) Good size (overall) for this specific position (6-1 or taller, 175 or more).


    If possible, please remind me what team championships JT Ford’s specific IT has produced, thus far, in his hoops career … cause, as far as I know, the answer to that question may well be zero [0].


    re: Supreme Confidence at the PG-spot

    IMO … each of the PG’s listed above KNEW that he was a 1st-class player without ever needing to play the game ‘angry’ or with a ‘chip’ on his shoulder; but, with an internal compass that does not flutter and provides consistent, calm direction/Leadership for his team.

  65. fluxland said

    We are clearly, not going to agree on this. Since we fundamentally have different opinions of TJ and JC.

    None of the “qualities” in what Mutoni and I are speaking of, imply playing “with anger or a chip on their shoulder.” Being confident (swagger, arrogance, cockiness) simply don’t spell ANGER to me. Perhaps to you they do. : )

    The point I have been stressing all along, and I know you are aware of this : )…is CLUTCH play, which usually results from above mentioned traits.


    and regarding TJ I submit:

    “helped Willowridge to a 75–1 win-loss record (including a 62-game winning streak) in his final two seasons, earning a pair of Texas Class 5A state titles in the process.”

    “became the first freshman player in NCAA history to lead the nation in assists (8.27 per game). Ford’s play ensured that Texas made it to the Sweet Sixteen”

    “…..while leading Texas to its first Final Four since 1947. At the end of the season, the consensus First Team All-America selection won the prestigious Naismith College Player of the Year and John Wooden (YOUR BOY) awards, and was named Player of the Year by Sports Illustrated, The Sporting News, and CBS SportsLine.”

    “was heralded by ashaving “the prescient ability to see the play before it happens, like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird”.

    and now the JUICE:

    ” Apart from his quick speed (Ford was voted the fastest player in the NBA in a 2007 Sports Illustrated survey of 271 NBA players), Ford’s clutch play was instrumental for the Raptors throughout his inaugural season. On 20 December 2006 he scored the winning basket against the Los Angeles Clippers and two days later, converted almost every shot in overtime and provided the vital assist in the win against the Portland Trail Blazers. Ford’s clutch play was again evident in a 120–119 overtime win against the Seattle SuperSonics on 11 March 2007 when he scored almost all of the team’s overtime points.”

    “and was also credited with bringing the Raptors to their first playoff berth in five years”


    NOW as to your boy Jose:

    -counting championships outside the NBA, holds little water in this corner, as the competition is sub par skill wise, and the one World Chip was won with teammates of high caliber, decreasing his value and contribution (to me). We have (I think) agreed that non-NBA play translates to little success in the NBA (say, 90% of the time)

    “Calderón struggled with his shooting in his first year in the NBA. Many basketball analysts considered the shooting problems a MENTAL issue, as Calderón was a top shooter in the Spanish League.” HMMMMMMM!!!

    “Calderón’s form was instrumental to the Raptors’ push for a playoff spot,” [very big difference between being intrumental (contributor) and being credited]

    also there is ZERO mention of clutch play at any point in his career! Unless, of course you know of something I don’t.

    Mental issues do not spell CLUTCH in this corner. Again, Jose may be a efficient, CALM (not a good sign here), pacifistic, little risk taking PG. Those qualities (as proven to me in the last two rounds) mean nothing when faced with the ADVERSITY in the NBA, where it’s a dog eat dog world and the weak minded are eliminated from the SHOW year after year.

    Please remember, we see completely differently on this issue with different lenses on, and there is little chance you will see anything the way I do or understand where I am coming from, as your fundamental views are deeply rooted. If anything over time I have been willing to see things from your point of view, whereas you categorically disagree with most things I have to offer, again in my view due to your core beliefs. But, this if FUN : )

  66. fluxland said

    Also regarding that international competition record, when actually qualifying for elimination rounds or even making the tourney, as in some cases they did not:

    98 gold FIBA
    00 bronze FIBA
    02 5th W.C.
    03 silver E.C.
    06 gold W.C.
    07 silver E.C.
    08 silver OLY

    Does that mean that when the chip are down – he fails? *2 is not a winner and 3 nobody remembers* Never been a big fan of the Bill, Braves or Pistons. Just don’t got it when it counts. (The Pistons chip one year is tainted, but that’s another story. )

    98 plays for team A
    99 plays for team B wins league chip
    01 plays for team C
    02 plays for team D where in 03 wins a cup of some sort playing behind Elmer Bennett!!! and in 05 goes to Eiuroleague Final Four finishing SECOND!!

    That’s a lot of teams teams to be switching when staring your career…wonder what the problems were?

  67. khandor said


    Fun it surely is. :-)


    Logical progression …

    You said Mutoni wrote an article which describes fairly accurately what it is you are looking for in a player with IT.

    Then you said that, IYO, TJ Ford has IT.

    To which I then pointed out that the IT of an elite level Point Guard in the NBA does NOT include “playing with anger, a chip on a shoulder, and without a steady internal compass and the calm it takes to direct a team properly/consistently at this level of competition” …

    which SHOULD … THEN … say to you …

    not that I’m saying YOU actually talked about these traits BEING IN a top notch Point Guard, but …

    that you DIDN’T TALK about these specific traits BEING IN a Point Guard like TJ Ford …

    which will/would EXCLUDE him from being considered in a way that the other players I’ve listed are all considered by astute NBA observers.

    Hopefully, you will be able to follow that logical sequence, my friend. :-)

    [NOTE: It usually takes me, at least, one or two additional comments to explain fully the actual logic/methodology involved in the original point I was trying to make … which is usually more complex than the standard reply … if I do say so myself. :-) Much respect to you, Flux, for usually catching this yourself, where others don’t necessarily have the capacity for this right away. BTW, not trying to offend anyone else with this comment; only calling ’em, the way I see ’em, so far. :-) ]


    re: actual championships won in a basketball career

    So … what you’re saying is that:

    TJ Ford has consecutive Texas State High School Championships to his credit; and,

    Jose Calderon has a FIBA World Championship to his credit … when he was surrounded BY OTHER VERY GOOD PLAYERS.

    I agree, completely, with these FACTS … which further substantiates what I’ve been saying about Jose Calderon all along. :-)

    i.e. He’s the type of Top Notch POINT GUARD who NEEEDS to have other elite level players around him to be able to win a major championship.

    This was also Dave’s point, as well, I think. :-)

    Respectfully … you are free to value the winning of consecutive Texas State High School Championships MORE THAN winning a FIBA World Championship … but, I do not … not in the modern pro game, where a solid team like Spain can, indeed, take the USA down to the final minutes of a well-played game, in an Olympic Games Final vs Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade, D-Will, CP3, CB4, D12, Melo, Tay-Prince, Boozer, M-Redd, and J-Kidd.

    Methinks that a FIBA Ring just might be worth a touch more. :-)


    You are right on the money, re: Clutch Play.

    To this point … I haven’t mentioned it at all. :-)


    * Calm … does not equal Pacificism.

    * The teams belonging to TJ Ford are the ones which have been eliminated from the NBA playoffs, since he’s come into the League.

    * If I’m not mistaken, Jose Calderon has yet to have a team he could call his own, in the NBA.

    That’s part of what this next phase in his NBA career should/is-going-to be about.

    There’s a difference there, my friend. :-)


    re: playing a high risk game at the PG-spot for an elite level NBA team

    Did Oscar Robertson/Lucius Allen do this for the Milwaukee Bucks?
    Did Gail Goodrich/Jerry West do this for the LA Lakers?
    Did Jojo White do this (twice) for the Boston Celtics?
    Did Charlie Johnson/Butch Beard do this for the G-State Warriors?
    Did Lionel Hollins/Dave Twardzik do this for the Portland Trailblazers?
    Did Tom Henderson do this for the Washington Bullets?
    Did Gus Williams do this for the Seattle Supersonics?
    Did Mo Cheeks do this for the Philadelphia 76ers?
    Did Gerald Henderson do this for the Boston Celtics?
    Did DJ do this for the Boston Celtics?
    Did BJ Armstrong/John Paxson do this for the Chicago Bulls?
    Did Kenny Smith do this for the Houston Rockets?
    Did Steve Kerr/Ron Harper do this for the Chicago Bulls?
    Did Avery Johnson do this for the San Antonio Spurs?
    Did Derek Fisher do this for the LA Lakers?
    Did Chauncey Billups do this for the Detroit Pistons?

    I don’t think they did. :-)

    [Maybe it was necessary for me to provide a ‘starters list’ of PG’s in NBA history who didn’t play the game in a high risk way and yet succeeded in a big way, afterall. :-) ]

    Even, further … I would suggest that there has NEVER BEEN a Main-frame championship calibre PG, in the History of The NBA, who has played the game with ‘anger’, a ‘chip on his shoulder’, and with erratic, sometimes downright ‘poor’ body language …

    while the simple fact is …

    there are plenty of Main-frame NBA PG’s on that ^^^ web page, right there … listed in the “Champion” column … who are NOT associated in any way with what WE BOTH would consider to be “CLUTCH Play” of the mega-superstar variety.

    A team does not NEED a mega-superstar ‘clutch’ player to win the NBA Title.


    Are my beliefs about this specific topic etched in stone?

    Yes, perhaps they are … based upon the History of the NBA. :-)

    If that is my personal bias … then so be it.

    I can easily live that.

    PS. Yes, indeed … it sure was a lot of fun composing that message. :-)

  68. khandor said


    Please correct for me …

    “A team does not NEED a mega-superstar ‘clutch’ player to win the NBA Title.”

    should read as …

    “A team does not NEED a megasuperstar ‘cluth’ player AT THE PG-SPOT to win the NBA Title.”

    Thanks a bunch. :-)

  69. khandor said

    oops, again …

    should read as,

    “… a mega-superstar clutch player …”


  70. khandor said

    re: the value of a quiet mind & internal calm in a PG

    Just picked up the following quote from HP:

    “To have a quiet mind is to possess one’s mind wholly; to have a calm spirit is to possess one’s self.”Hamilton Wright Maybie

  71. khandor said

    Which then leads to the following logical sequence, for an elite level PG …

    Possess one’s mind wholly.
    Possess one’s self.
    Possess the ball.
    Possess one’s team.

    :-) :-) :-)

  72. fluxland said

    Touche.. regarding 1st point. As you say, I usually follow your logic very well.. perhaps a little early in the morning, then?

    HOWEVER… the fact that I don’t/ didn’t talk about those specific traits is beacuse I don’t interpret TJ’s style of play as playing with anger and chip on his shoulder. I view them in the aspects Mutoni mentioned. Again, they don’t spell anger to me. And at other times, it may be frustration but not anger, IMO.

    I wasn’t comparing the HS chips to a FIBA chip… you asked: “If possible, please remind me what team championships JT Ford’s specific IT has produced, thus far, in his hoops career … cause, as far as I know, the answer to that question may well be zero [0].” It is possible and I answered… the answer is not LOVE… (hehe) I mean ZERO : )

    Again winning a FIBA ring or HS ring for that matter doesn’t mean anything when you enter the NBA, IMO.
    Kobe didn’t say winning a FIBA gold would mean more. This is also someone who already has 3 rings under his belt, so asking him is not a fair question. Also, if you were to ask the majority of bball players what would make them more “CERTIFIED” (thanks KG) in their world, I am willing to be an NBA ring would be so. Asking them from a media POV… it is only reasonable they would answer “winning for my country” C’mon now!! Behind closed doors.. being able to say you have an NBA ring while competing against THE BEST bball players on the planet, night in and night out, 82 games , playoffs has more meaning then a tourney.

    Jose had the opportunity to show us what he is made of vs NJ (1 point down last play) and ORL. FAIL!!!


    Where is my man Zeke on that list?

    I cannot answer that, again, because we interpret TJs style much differently and methinks you are thinking of TJ post injury in TO.


    I am not sure if you read my other posts, but we had a great situation last year. We had two PGs that leads us to a division chip.. it was all hugs and kisses and everyone got along. Jose wasn’t complaining about his role when he was playing at a lower level then TJ. Everything was fine pre injury. Then when he is asked to play his role and fill in while the man is injured, he takes advantage of the opportunity and starts crying about starting when TJ comes back. Thru perfect manipulation via media and fans (if you think race doesn’t play an issue here you are kidding yourself – the disgruntled black man and all) he makes TJ look like the bad guy and essentially black mails BC. Why did he do that? He needed to get paid and he knew the only was to get starter money was to be a starter. Going anywhere else was never an option, because he know that if he fails here, he will be the fans darling, where as anywhere else in the US he gets crucified. Why could he not accept his role that worked for 1.5 years prior to? Why did we ruin a perfect PG situation? So the fans can have what they want, regardless of long term impact, and BC can keep making money for MSLE.

  73. fluxland said

    When analysts say your shooting is a MENTAL issue – you do not posses your mind wholly. Or self. When you fumble the ball vs NJ you do not posses the ball. And def, not your team.

  74. fluxland said

    Oh an about “A team does not NEED a megasuperstar ‘cluth’ player AT THE PG-SPOT to win the NBA Title.”

    No you don’t but:

    When you hand the franchise keys to Jose, hand him down the contract you did, consider it will now be impossible (I think) to bring in anyone else of high caliber over the next two years and again look at roster, you have to think that someone believes Jose does have IT -clutch, when clearly no one else on the team does either. And again, I disagree.

  75. fluxland said

    Meaning, someone has to have IT and when the rest of the team doesn’t appear to and you handle the PG situation they way you did, clearly you must think he does.

  76. khandor said


    If that’s how the Raptors brain-trust is thinking … i.e. that Jose has the type of IT you’re referring to, rather than the type of IT I’m referring to … then, I think they’re going to find out in the long run that they were wrong to hold this opinion of Jose, in the first place.

    I will grant you this much:

    Jose does not have the type of IT to which you are referring.
    Jose has only the type of IT to which I am referring.

    I think this type of IT is sufficient, for a PG … if a team assembles a solid group of other players around Jose, including a player or two who has the type of IT you’re actually referring to, but at other positions, and not necessarily at the PG-spot.

    We have already had a lengthy discussion re: the different viewpoints we do not share about the final play in the NJ series … so there’s no need to go in that direction further in this thread. We agree to disagree about that.

    re: TJ Ford’s high school championships

    Sincere thanks for providing that info here. It was news to me.

    What I wrote subsequent to getting that info, from you … was precisely what it made me think of … re: the relative value of a FIBA Ring (so-to-speak) vs a Texas State High School Ring, in the grand scheme of things.

    I left Zeke off the list … for a specific reason.

    Didn’t want others, who may mistakenly perceive Isiah Lord Thomas, III to have been a high-risk player, at the PG-spot, to be able to critique the list, in general, with the snide remark that, “Zeke was a high-risk player at that spot and he’s on your list; so your list is therefore invalid” … when the fact is Zeke was not a high-risk PG at all. Zeke, properly understood, was a “Smile’n Assassin” who made the percentage play more often than not … but with the talent and the moxy to absolutely bury you, when he thought the ‘right’ play was to do the dirty deed himself. Dude had the epitome of a ‘quiet mind’ and ‘internal calm’, amid the chaos of Cabrini Green, IU-under [chair-throwing] Coach Knight, and then in the NBA as, perhaps, the most hated member of the Bad Boyz. Non-fluttering, internal compass? You bet. Angry? Erratic? Poor body lnguage? No Way, Jose!

    Also left off Magic off the list, for a similar but slightly different reason.

    i.e. Some might mis-interpret the exhuberance with which Earvin played the game to be akin to lacking calm, in some way … which it does not. When you watched Magic play … one thing you knew immediately was that this man, right here, had complete control of the situation at-hand, at all times. Sometimes he succeeded. Sometimes he failed. But control was never, ever in doubt.

    Quiet mind. Inner calm. Equals solid decision-making skills with the ball, especially at crunch time, when the pressure’s on, and the Heat’s turned up full blast. At the PG-spot, usually on THE Pass, not the Shot.

    Why was Jose no longer just content to blithely play 2nd fiddle to TJ Ford with the Raptors?

    IMO, cause over the course of the last two seasons he could see what was apparent to some observers quite some time ago.

    i.e. This shared PG business between these two PG’s was NOT the ideal situation, and was NOT going to lead to the Raptors making it out of the 1st Round of the Playoffs anytime soon, with this set-up intact.

    Jose would have been content to stay in his back-up role to TJ Ford if the team would have been continued to make progress.

    Jose was not prepared to stay in his back-up role to TJ Ford if the team was going to continue to perform in the erratic way it was performing with both Jose and TJ on the roster … but losing the vast majority of the games they played against a team with a better W-L record than Toronto had and beating most of the teams they played with a poorer W-L record than the Raptors, with an occasional hiccup here and there.

    This is not how a top tier team in the making performs during its growth period.

    When their team played a close game against a top tier opponent, it would not succeed during the important phases of that game when TJ Ford was on the court, playing with the 1st Unit, in the same way that it would when Jose was on the court, playing with the 1st Unit.

    Jose could see this.
    As could other astute observers of the NBA game.

    There was a difference between how this team played with Calderon as the Primary PG, and how it played with TJ in that role … looking ahead to better days.

    If you believe that Jose Calderon is a Pacificist at-heart, only, then you did not read his comments thoroughly, on the whole TJ situation last season and what his actual (Jose’s) goals are with the Toronto Raptors.

    IMO … Jose Calderon is a nice guy … WHO WANTS TO WIN, badly.

    Amongst the general sporting public, almost everyone will praise Bill Russell for being such an UNSELFISH player with the old Boston Celtics.

    Everyone that is … except Mr. Russell, himself.

    What The Great Man has actually said and written about himself is very different than that.


    “I was the MOST SELFISH of all players when I played the game. All I cared about was getting what I wanted. Which was … having MY Team WIN the game. That’s the ONLY thing that MATTERED to me. Everything else was secondary. Everything. Doing what was necessary for My Team to WIN was THE Goal, first and foremost.”

    Unselfish? Or, in fact, Selfish … to the nth degree! Does it really make a difference?

    The Great Man, had what I refer to as the Unselfish/Selfish-Winning Attitude … otherwise known, affectionately, as “Celtics Pride!

    Not false pride, in self … but AUTHENTIC PRIDE, in TEAM … and in TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT.

    That, right there … please click HERE … is the greatest basketball player of all-time … talking smack.

    Which is the God’s Honest Truth. Late at night. In the dark. When no-one else is there. And we are all alone with our thoughts … and with what we each believe to be the source of our own creation.

    Do I think that Jose Calderon is a Pacifist, at-heart?

    No, I do not.

    He’s a solid, pass-first PG who is willing to do what’s necessary to be part of a team he believes is going to win a championship, one day in the future.

    That’s his goal … as a basketball player.

    Which was/is the same goal of the other PG’s already mentioned in this thread.


    If Jose Calderon is going to be your franchise’s PG … you better have a GM with outstanding vision and capable of placing the other elite level players who are needed to help Jose win a championship.

    If not, IMO, your team has no realistic chance of ever winning a League Title sometime down-the-road.

  77. fluxland said

    What you wrote only raises more questions, in my mind, then gives me answers (obviously, I knew very well where you stood on all these issues, we have discussed them all at length before)

    re: Jose and TJ. We 100% view what each brings to the table differently and to an extreme, IMO. I say Jose is efficient yet not reliable in the clutch IMPOSTOR , you say he’s a team 1st, holier then thou, chip bringing STUD. You say TJ is a out of control, angry, selfish, high risk never will anything LOSER, I say he a tough minded, will not back down, delivers in the clutch ASSASSIN.

    Neither one of us was there in the locker room, on the bus, in the gym to know what exactly went down with that team. That said:

    If Jose is so team oriented and clearly they had found success the 1st year together on the team, what happened that Jose suddenly found it unbearable to play with the guy?

    Methinks someone got tired of being a backup, was becoming a FA.. needed to get paid.. and pushed BC into a corner. The team success and/or failure, IMO, does not rest on TJs shoulders as you are implying, I assume, with “Jose would have been content to stay in his back-up role to TJ Ford if the team would have been continued to make progress… ” there are/were many, many other factors involved and reasons why this team started to suck. I could say this team didn’t make progress because Jose started to stir the pot KNOWING it would upset and set off TJ and cause all the subsequent events. But, I know.. that’s not a possibility because Jose hands out Gatorade during halftime, he’s named Play Fair ambassador and by your account is a nice guy. As opposed to TJ, who must be the devil, since he had a hard time adjusting to the game and getting back in the flow after his injury. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!! HOW DARE HE??!!

    And to continually blame Jose’s failure or success on another players presence, I don’t know what it says about his mental make up. I would expect more from a professional and more experienced bball player.

    TJ also missed 25 games … there is no way to predict how this team would have done had he not gone down. Speculate.. not predict. Jose started 56 games last year as well… if anything I would be inclined to blame him for the Raptor failures.

    I read every word Jose spoke… I’ve read the blog … I’ve read the Spanish articles/interviews… I came away with a different impression of the guy. Nothing to do with him being selfish unselfish on the court. He’s a PG… it’s hard for them to be selfish.

    At the end of the day, when it comes down to the players and the ENTIRE situation and how it all went down… we interpret and saw things in an entirely different way and different lens/light. I for one, obviously did not see things go down they way 99 per cent of RaportLand did. I think by now you should realize that regardless of how you flip it … there is nothing that will change my mind. And either players success/failure in the future will not either.

  78. fluxland said

    You know what? You are right. For whatever reason, the two could not get along or co exist, even after the division winning year and something had to give. BC also had to make a decision and from all of his POVs, it had to be Jose. (As much as I would have used Jose as bait to get something better the JO, since Ford is not abysmal by my account.)

    It just bothers me because I wonder what could have been. Either way, we didn’t end up with a scrub PG and he’s good for the team. My only worry is the clutch play, cuz it all comes down to one play, but it’s time to leave the past behind and hope this team pulls it together with this major roster change and rising East.

    Gonna go swing the ol’ axe at the fuzzy yellow ball… good times as always, Khandor, Sir.


  79. Gadget said


    Great article, Go Gadget go…

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