The Toronto Raptors Blog with an Arsenal touch

Raps beat Knicks – Beggars can’t be choosers

Posted by Arsenalist on March 28, 2008

NY Knicks 95, Toronto Raptors 103

Beggars can’t be choosers so we can’t be getting too picky about the type of wins we get as long as they’re wins. Despite missing Robinson, Marbury, Randolph and Curry, the Knicks put up a very commendable fight and if it weren’t for their bad FT shooting and blown gimme layups, this one might’ve been one of those “I don’t believe we just lost that” games for the Raptors. The sense of urgency that we expected to see in these final 12 games was only there for the first quarter and after going up big on the Knicks early, we shifted down a few gears and expected NY to fade. A trend far too disconcerting for anyone.

No matter how big or small the Raptor lead was there was a general feeling that it was a comfortable one, aside from Jamal Crawford, the Knicks didn’t have a firepower scorer that could propel them to a win. Crawford and Jared Jeffries did their best in cutting a 17 point deficit down to 3 in the second quarter but fortunately for the Raptors, that was the last of the big Knick runs. We had serious trouble putting them away because our offense couldn’t handle the zone and the pressure they were applying on Bosh (5 TOs). Our defense couldn’t contain the Knicks’ playground style of ball which consisted of one-on-one moves and jacking up the first chance at a shot. If the Knicks had been a little more patient or if Fred Jones didn’t suck, they’d have a lot more to say in this one.

Neither team played very well, the Raptors struggled stopping the Knicks and the Knicks never got into any sort of offensive rhythm. If the Raptors had played better defense and played with more intensity, there was no reason why the Knicks wouldn’t have been blown out of the water by the third quarter. This might cost us against New Orleans because Bosh ended up playing a game-high 47 minutes! Yup, our superstar needed to play 47 minutes against the second worst team in the East who happened to be missing 60% of their starting lineup. Yikes!

Chris Bosh (29/10/1) had his hands full with Jared Jeffries (21/10/3) who was running the break, hitting the glass and being very aggressive by attacking the rim. Bosh had a strong but quiet night, he spread his points across the game and seemed to come up with timely baskets whenever the Knicks were about to get too close for comfort. Isiah Thomas noticed it too:

“Toronto did a good job of keeping us at bay, whenever we tried to make a run, Bosh was there to answer it.”

Stick Rasho Nesterovic into any role and he’ll produce, tonight he was at his best and kept getting deep position on David Lee and Jeffries for scores around the hoop. The beautiful part about the 18/8 from Rasho is that they all come naturally, not a single shot is forced and not a single shot can be considered a bad shot. Needless to say his play has been superb, what does get lost in his performances is what he’s been able to do on the defensive end by throwing his wide load of a body around to block out players from getting offensive rebounds. Unless there’s a serious helter-skelter under the rim, you’ll never see his man pick up an offensive rebound.

It wasn’t pretty watching the Raptors trying to figure out NY’s zone defense nor was it any fun to watch us crumble when the ball was pressured. TJ Ford did a good job of figuring out what NY was doing and never forced it by going blindly at the heart of the zone but choosing to penetrate just enough so that zone would somewhat collapse on him in the paint and he’d pick out his options. A very controlled and impressive 10 point, 9 assist and 0 turnover performance from TJ which included an ankle-breaking move on Jared Jeffries made for Sportscenter (the ESPN kind, not the TSN garbage).

Andrea Bargnani tends to play pretty well against the trash of the NBA so it wasn’t surprising to see him put up a decent night of 12/4 in 22 minutes. It’s the sort of performance you can build on, maybe go to bed happy tonight that you hit a few shots, managed to get a nice dunk and weren’t manned-out on the boards. But he should be anxious to get back on the floor on Sunday so that he can build pressure on Sam to put him back in the starting lineup. I want the man to be ticked off that he’s coming off the bench and it should motivate him to play harder and smarter. A lot’s been made of the “internal competition” on the Raptors – Graham/Moon/Delfino and Ford/Calderon – but the most interesting one is the minutes battle between Rasho and Bargnani. Idealy speaking, Bargnani would play 35 productive minutes a game and in the process hone his skill-set and start becoming the next Nowitzki while the veteran Rasho spells him for 12-17 minutes a game. But it’s turning out quite differently coming down the final stretch with Rasho playing the bigger role and Bargnani being part of the supporting cast. A bit of an unexpected role reversal. On a somewhat related unrelated note, Barraketh on RealGM summed it up nicely:

The problem with Bargs is that he was picked too high. The man has huge flaws in his game, and though it’s possible that he will be able to overcome them and become a great player, it’s by no means a sure thing. If we were a team like Seattle, we could let him play through his mistakes. However, we’re a playoff team, and we need to win now as well as later. He was given his shot as a starter, he didn’t learn on the job fast enough to keep him there – guess what, that’s NBA for you! It’s absurd to say that he hasn’t been given a chance to succeed. From here on out he has to earn his minutes just like anyone else – by contributing on the floor. Hopefully he’ll train hard this offseason and come back a much improved player.

A very stupid moment occurred in the game where Chuck Swirsky was openly laughing at how the Knicks weren’t running any set plays but just going around “freelancing” as suggested by Jack Armstrong. Do they not see the hypocrisy in this or have they completely shut out the fact that we are one of the worst when it comes to freelancing on offense? Also, did anybody catch Swirsky saying Amare Stoudamire is neck and neck with Kevin Garnett when it comes to who’s more deserving of the MVP? I hope this guy doesn’t get an MVP vote. I can point to at least 4 other very homerish/questionable things uttered by the Swirsk, but lets not dwell on it.

Till Sunday.


  • Phoenix spanked Philly so we’re back in the 6th spot. Big game on Sunday, Hornets lost to the Celtics so they’ll be looking to get back to winning ways.
  • I wonder where the Knicks would be if they fielded the same lineup they did tonight and didn’t have Randolph/Curry/Marbury. They’d probably win the same number of games but at least they’d be fun to watch and a lot cheaper.
  • Jason Kapono with 7 scoreless minutes. I’m trying to think of how this guy can have an impact on this team and right now I’m coming up blank.
  • Seeing Jamario Moon pass up a jumper to drive and dunk the ball in the first quarter was a welcome sign and Jack Armstrong very correctly pointed out that we need a lot more of that. But in typical Moon style, that was the last such play.
  • We played down to the level of our competition but we have good outside shooters and the 50% shooting bailed us out.
  • I disagree with Swirsky/Armstrong that David Lee is the one guy you’d pick up from the Knicks. It’s Jamal Crawford by a big margin.
  • After Charlotte, Detroit is the only +.500 team we’ll face and even they’ll be resting their starters.
  • CB4 = Top Rap.

31 Responses to “Raps beat Knicks – Beggars can’t be choosers”

  1. cuzzy said

    I did not see the game due to my lack of RApsTV but thank you for the recap. It looked like an ugly game on the SCore ticker as I watched Curry beat up the Badgers.

    Chuck is a total homer and I agree with you, he puts blinders on for the RAps.

    At least they finally won a Friday night game eh.

    N’ar Leans will be tough.

    Based on the Roger Mason Jr. syndrome, Mo Pete is going to have 25 points.

  2. […] – Arsenalist […]

  3. […] a full recap and thoughts on the game you can head over to these sites: The Arsenalist, Raptors Talk addthis_url = […]

  4. Raps Fan said

    that was one of the most boring games i watched in a while. i’m trying to be positive arse, but the raptors have a healthy team, late in the season, and all we can manage is an 8 point win over the knicks at home.

  5. Bones said

    Half way into the 1st and part way into the 2nd the Raptors looked like they were waking up. Then once they reached that 17 point lead they fell back to sleep and the game was up for grabs. What a lack of urgency and commitment from the Raptors except for Rasho. It was another solid outing for him; mind you he wasn’t up against Curry and Randolf. I will hate to see him go next year.
    I heard during the game that Bargnani is going to spend time in the off season working out with John Lucas. Time to put out or ship out next year for Bargs.

    Chuck is a total homer but at least Jack was there instead of diarrhea mouth Leo. Man, that guy never shuts his hole.

  6. FAQ said

    Raptor fans must get back to reality. The current Raptors will never get beyond the first round in Eastern Conference playoffs, and they were fortunate to even be in the playoffs if it wasn’t for the many injuries on other teams.

    Toronto tribal honkers expect too much and act as if Toronto deserves a ‘championship’. That ain’t gonna happen in the foreseeable future, and no amount of analysis and criticism will change reality.

    Don’t be surprised if Bosh departs in 2010 to play on a team with championship prospects. Also look at the present roster filled with Euro-players and no US NBA bigs .. doesn’t that tell you something??

    Why do you think BC has Gherardini and Masai Ujiri on staff ???

    As for Bargnani not performing in his second year, I just think how fans were happy with him in his first year. What is revealing about fan basketball ignorance is their lack of understanding why Bargs is struggling. Fans need their tribal honking feeeelings satisfied immediately and if they are unhappy they try to find somebody else to blame, rather than reflecting on their basketball ignorance.

    Bargs is being asked to change his game from last year, and he is obviously unprepared and untutored for the change. He tries his best and the result is inconsistency and even failure. What do you expect .. a miracle ??? Oh but wait .. he was picked #1 in the draft and should be better than he is to satisfy tribal honking fans. He should be a solid 15/10 because that’s what being picked #1 means … !!!! Blame somebody .. blame somebody ..!!!!

    On another tack … when reading the PHX Suns RealGM forum, it seems their insightful fans are not happy with their situation with Nash, Barbosa and Diaw. Go figure ..!!!

    They are talking about Nash aging and deteriorating, Barbosa not being a PG and Diaw being too expensive, amongst other criticisms such as poor 3-point shooting. If fans could make trades, I wonder if they would give up Barbosa and Diaw for TJ Ford to back up aging Nash for his ailing back and to extend his career, Kapono for 3-point shooting and Graham to match the salaries. If Nash ever went down the Suns would crash. Now I’m fantacizing like a ‘fan’ … !!!!

    Just imagine Raptors with a lineup with Calderon, Barbosa, Diaw, Bosh, Bargnani/Rasho … backed up by Ukic, Delfino, Parker, others …. pant pant pant … LOL

  7. arsenalist said

    FAQ, the reason Bargnani is struggling this year and had success last year has a lot to do with NBA defenses adjusting to his one-dimensional game and forcing him out of his comfort-zone. In other words the scouting reports got out.

    There are certain expectations of a #1 pick and he’s not meeting them. Fans have a right to complain about it, we all can’t just magically understand how he’s struggling and be OK with it. Yeah, there’s something to be said for adjusting to the NBA from Europe, but I’m questioning his toughness, rebounding, footwork and decision making – those should be pre-packaged for a pick that high and not left for the team that drafted him to develop.

    I would understand your point about him adjusting more if you talked about how he needs to get physically stronger or adjust to the rough style of the NBA but that’s not even the case. His flaws are technical, not physical and I could even look past them if he was drafted #5-8 which is where he probably would’ve gone if BC hadn’t jumped the gun or bothered trading down for him.

    Am I being short-sighted by criticizing Bargnani? Maybe, but do I have a legitimate reason to criticize? Damn right!

  8. FAQ said

    arsonalist … you can criticize all you want, but your criticisms are misplaced and your conclusions are faulty.

    Did you recognize Bargs deficiencies last year and call for his head on a platter if he didn’t change his game?? Did you think that Bargs could magically blossom into a rebounding, driving, inside player who could also make instantaneous decision making in his new role?? Of course you did because all #1 picks are expected to satisfy the tribal honking fans, and most of these junk-food stuffing fat fans never even played anything more than h-o-r-s-e !!!??

    The fact is Bargnani was not a legitimate #1 draft pick, but BC wanted him regardless. Rather than hanging Bargs with your short-sighted complaints, why don’t you analyze his good and bad games as he progressively converts his entire game .. and in the process messes up his 3-point shooting ritual. The guy is trying to change and you and others dump on him without understanding what is happening to him ..!!!

    Perhaps you should restrict your attacks to BC, Gherardini and even Ujiri .. because these guys are intent on building an “international” team that depends on teamwork and no one-on-one flash stars …. and that will drive the fantacizing tribal honkers insane … (We want/need a Kobe-Lebron-Paul type of guy .. because we deserve it …!!!) Nope … !!!

    As for “his one-dimensional game and forcing him out of his comfort-zone” .. I think you have that bass ackwards. Bargs is taking the game to and under the hoop, and forcing himself out of his old comfort zone … and messing up too. If he’s producing, Sam leaves him in the game, but if he’s struggling, out he comes, and that’s understandable .. but to criticize speciously is … just honking.

  9. Raps Fan said

    if suns fans aren’t happy with diaw, and we only see them a few games a year…doesn’t that tell you something? if kerr would be willing to give up barbosa and diaw for ford and kapono, what does that say about his guys?

  10. khandor said


    No. 1 NBA Draft Choices

    Year Name Team School/Country

    2006 Andrea Bargnani Toronto Italy

    2005 Andrew Bogut Milwaukee Utah
    2004 Dwight Howard Orlando SW Atlanta Christian Academy (GA) *
    2003 LeBron James Cleveland St. Vincent-St. Mary HS (OH) *
    2002 Yao Ming Houston China *
    2001 Kwame Brown Washington Glynn Academy
    2000 Kenyon Martin New Jersey Nets Cincinnati
    1999 Elton Brand Chicago Bulls Duke
    1998 Michael Olowokandi Los Angeles Clippers Pacific (Cal.)
    1997 Tim Duncan San Antonio Wake Forest *
    1996 Allen Iverson Philadelphia Georgetown *
    1995 Joe Smith Golden State Maryland
    1994 Glenn Robinson Milwaukee Purdue
    1993 Chris Webber Orlando Michigan
    1992 Shaquille O’Neal Orlando Louisiana State *
    1991 Larry Johnson Charlotte Nevada-Las Vegas
    1990 Derrick Coleman New Jersey Syracuse
    1989 Pervis Ellison Sacramento Louisville
    1988 Danny Manning L.A. Clippers Kansas
    1987 David Robinson San Antonio Navy *
    1986 Brad Daugherty Cleveland North Carolina *
    1985 Patrick Ewing New York Georgetown *
    1984 Hakeem Olajuwon Houston Houston *
    1983 Ralph Sampson Houston Virginia
    1982 James Worthy L.A. Lakers North Carolina *
    1981 Mark Aguirre Dallas DePaul
    1980 Joe Barry Carroll Golden State Purdue
    1979 Magic Johnson L.A. Lakers Michigan State *
    1978 Mychal Thompson Portland Minnesota
    1977 Kent Benson Milwaukee Indiana
    1976 John Lucas Houston Maryland
    1975 David Thompson Atlanta North Carolina State *
    1974 Bill Walton Portland UCLA *
    1973 Doug Collins Philadelphia Illinois State
    1972 LaRue Martin Portland Loyola-Chicago
    1971 Austin Carr Cleveland Notre Dame
    1970 Bob Lanier Detroit St. Bonaventure
    1969 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee UCLA *
    1968 Elvin Hayes Houston Houston *
    1967 Jimmy Walker Detroit Providence
    1966 Cazzie Russell New York Michigan

    By the end of their 2nd year in NBA, each of the No. 1 Overall Draft Picks on this list had established who they were eventually going to become in this League, once they reached full maturity as men and as basketball players.

    Players who are picked No. 1 Overall AND can DOMINATE NBA games (marked with an asterisk, above) DO NOT take time to develop.

    Anyone who claims they do … just does not know what they are talking about.

  11. Johnn19 said


    Might be interesting to know how many of these players were asked to change their position in the NBA from the one they had played thru their earlier careers, and how long it took them to excel.

  12. khandor said


    Might also be interesting to note that players picked in the No. 1 Overall spot … who subsequently NEED to change position in the NBA, in order to find success, might not have been worthy of being picked in this spot to begin with.

    60 years of NBA history says that … if you are going to ever become a DOMINANT player in this League YOU show that ability (almost) RIGHT AWAY (i.e. like the players marked with an asterisk have done).

  13. FAQ said

    khandor Says: …. March 29, 2008 at 9:39 pm


    No. 1 NBA Draft Choices
    Year Name Team School/Country
    2006 Andrea Bargnani Toronto Italy

    By the end of their 2nd year in NBA, each of the No. 1 Overall Draft Picks on this list had established who they were eventually going to become in this League, once they reached full maturity as men and as basketball players.

    Players who are picked No. 1 Overall AND can DOMINATE NBA games (marked with an asterisk, above) DO NOT take time to develop.

    Anyone who claims they do … just does not know what they are talking about.

    Okay, you made your point, and I agreed that Bargnani is not at the same #1 draft pick level as those on your list .. so what are you trying to prove ??

    What do you think should be done to remedy the situation??

    What are you trying to tell us ???

  14. FLUXLAND said

    khandor .. I have seen this beofre.. and I have a few issues with that no.1 pick argument…

    for starters….I think there should be some consideration that
    91 % of the players on that list are American – meaning they have been breathing, eating USA ball their entire lives. Their adaptation level is significantly minimal as opposed to a foreign player.

    Would it not stand to reason that the foreign players would need a bigger window of adjustment.

    Yao was not exactly dominant for the first few years.

    and FAQ does make a good case about the fact Andrea has been asked to do a million different things in a not so “stable” environment. It’s not as if he came into an organization thats established an identity and he was asked to fulfill one role and has miserably failed.

    I think his situation is a little unique, no?

  15. Raps Fan said

    flux, i think khandor is trying to say that if the player is being asked to do different things they can, or position, then they shouldn’t be a # 1 pick. in our case, bargnani is a 3/4 who shoots, the fact that the raptors are trying to turn bargnani into a 5 means they should have taken alrdige, someone who can play 4/5 without the need for an adjustment. #1 picks, for the most part, should be able to step in, and contribute right away. big difference then a lottery pick.

  16. FLUXLAND said

    Raps… i dunno why you think they are trying to make him a 5.. I dont’t see it that way.

    Either way, this is about the draft.

    – I think something to keep in mind is the fact that just because you want a certain player, it doesn’t mean he wants to play there. So let’s not just assume that you can pick anyone you want. You can’t.

    – I also way too much emphasis is placed on the actual number of the pick. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter when you pick but who you pick. (ask any player that has become an all-star or a significant part of a ring team and wasn’t drafted in the first round or in the top 10)

    – That being said, teams are fulfilling needs while trying to pick the player with the most potential/ability (that would willingly play for their team). That year, for us that was Andrea.

    – No one knew B.Roy and R. Gay were going to be that good that fast. And if you say you knew.. you are a liar. That leaves LaMarcus Aldrige (the draft options sucked bad that year face it)..whom is only, IMO in a better situation, that consequently allowed him to look as good as he has (I think dude plays 15 min more then andrea per game anyway). I mean c’mon if Protland sucked this year who would have cared… TO not reaching last years mark is a travesty and should be blamed on Andrea or BC for picking him?! (according to some anyway)WTF? (Not to mention that we don’t know if he would have came here – lamarcus that is).

    – Andrea was the right pick…no question about it.. the fact he hasn’t produced to YOUR expectations… well.. see my previous comment. His situation is unique in more ways then one.

  17. khandor said

    * Bargnani was NOT the right pick for the Raptors to make … for a number of reasons.

    * Anyone here who says they knew what I thought about Bargnani prior to the 2006 NBA Draft … would be telling a LIE unless this person said that prior to that Draft khandor thought Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay were the players Toronto should have traded down to get because either one of these two young men was eventually going to be a more DOMINANT player in the NBA than Bargnani (once he reaches his max).

    If Toronto would have traded down and gotten either LaMarcus Aldridge or Bargnani at a later point in the 1st Round of that draft then that too would have been fine.

    * It is a cop out to suggest that an experienced Euro pro, like Bargnani was at the time he was drafted, at the age he was when he was drafted, is “entitled” to a longer leash than a non-European player is entitled to, at the No. 1 Overall spot … cause an American player has “less” to adjust to in the NBA.

    * I didn’t say that a No. 1 Overall Draft Pick has to DOMINATE in the NBA right away to prove his worth.

    What I said was that a No. 1 Overall Draft Pick who has the ability to DOMINATE in the NBA shows that he has this ability (almost) right away, after entering the NBA.

    Yao Ming did not dominate the game right away BUT he did show that he has the ability to DOMINATE the game at this level given the unique combination of skills he possesses, in conjunction with his attitude and work ethic.


    * What to do with a former No. 1 Overall Draft Pick who was picked in error, as a reach, and doesn’t have the package to DOMINATE in the NBA … now or down-the-road?

    A “top notch GM” would peddle this player to another team, as fast as possible, in order to maximize the return on investment this player holds … i.e. the longer he’s retained by his original team, the lower return he eventually brings to them (e.g. see the Candy Man, and countless others).

    * A trade proposal for you to think about?

    Andrea Bargnani to the LA Clippers for Al Thornton, Josh Powell and Brevin Knight.

    (this deal ‘works’ according to the RealGM Trade Checker)

    Would you make it if you were the Raptors?
    How about if you were the Clippers?

  18. FLUXLAND said

    *like what?

    *please clarify. My points is, at the time of the draft Andrea had more ability/potential. Are you saying you knew they would be the players they are and suggested we NOT pick Andrea?

    *that is not a cop out. That is a fact. An indisputable one. You cannot tell me that you have the same expectations from someone that has been in an environment their entire lives and someone who has been in it for 2 years.

    *andrea has shown same ability in very limited minutes and undefined role.

    2 things you are STILL neglecting:

    -willingness of player to actually play for the team
    -# of pick is completely irrelevant hence any argument to pick actually being right of wrong doesn’t make sense.

    It was not an error! At the worst it was a future asset.. a point you make suggesting the trade (a trade that only a moron would make)

    You now just implied Andrea is a bust (Kandiman – get it right); which is INSANITY!!! The Kandiman cannot be compared to ANYONE.

    and suggested his play is going to get worst. I think you need to give that a little more time.

    p.s. have you been drinking on this Sunday afternoon?
    p.s.s. yao is a bust

  19. FLUXLAND said

    *k got your point.. that IS way your are implying you had ALLEGEDLY suggested. Those players wouldn’t have satisfied the Raps needs.

    We had 2 guards we were committed to and we have a Chris Bosh.

    In getting Andrea we got a guy that the Spurs or some other well established organization would have throw into their well oiled machine and got to produce rings for them.

    I don’t understand how you can possibly argue he didn’t match the Raps needs while considering a number of other factors that I have already mentioned.

    *”experienced” Euro pro – c’mon now… don’t make me laugh.

  20. khandor said


    Everything starts with Chris Bosh and who it is you think he is, as an elite level NBA player.

    Do you believe Bosh is a 5 or a 4, in this League?

    I believe Bosh’s best position, in the NBA, is to play as a 5.

    On Offense: The kind of 5 who should be isolated on the Right Block (or Mid Post, or High Post) repeatedly, or put in High Middle Pick & Roll/Pop situations; not a perimeter 5, and not a Wing Isolation player.

    On Defense: As a soft Low Post defender, who is a terrific off-the-ball shot blocker.

    As a Rebounder: A DOMINANT force, capable of averaging in excess of 15-18+ per game.


    Jose Calderon is a terrific PG (1) to go with Bosh.

    Jorge Garbajosa (4), Kris Humphries (4) and Rasho Nesterovic (5) are terric compliments to go with Bosh.

    Morris Peterson was a solid, unselfish, no-flash-and-dash 2-Guard with good size, whose best attributes are Rebounding & Defense … which fit well with Bosh.

    Anthony Parker is a capable back-up 2/3/1 in the NBA … who fits well with Bosh.

    Joey Graham is a capable back-up 3/4 in the NBA … who fits well with Bosh.

    What the Raptors needed at the time of the 2006 Draft was a Top Tier Wing Man, 6’6-6’9 and very athletic, who could develop into a Prime-Time scorer (slash, shoot, post-up, iso & make FT’s) in the NBA.

    The Raptors did not need Andrea Bargnani (7′, 3-pt shooter, who can pass the ball but is an ‘average’ athlete, at best, a poor defender & rebounder with a minimal Low Post presence).

    If the Raptors wanted to pick ‘an asset’ with the No. 1 Overall Selection, who they could eventually trade down-the-road (to fill a need at a different position later-on), due to some sort of duplication, then the Pick should have been LaMarcus Aldridge (5/4, like Bosh) or Tyrus Thomas (very athletic 4).

    Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay SHOULD have been the Raptors’ 1st Round pick in the 2006 NBA Draft.


    re: the NBA ‘adjustment period’ for a 21 yr old Euro pro like Bargnani

    Bargnani has been playing “pro” ball in Europe since he was a mid-teen … which means that he has been practicing 2-3 times per day, lifting weights, training, playing & traveling with grown men (some in their late 30’s & early 40′)


    The Candy Man (Kandiman) comparison was NOT meant to suggest that Bargnani and Olowokandi have a similar skill set; it was used to illustrate just how fast and how far a No. 1 Overall Draft Pick can deteriorate in the eyes of NBA GM’s if that player stays with his original team for an extended number of years without living up to the expectations those GM’s once had for him en masse. (it’s an example of the extreme)


    re: “In getting Andrea we got a guy that the Spurs or some other well established organization would have throw into their well oiled machine and got to produce rings for them.”

    Do you think the Spurs would have used the 2006 No. 1 Overall Draft Pick to select Bargnani, if San Antonio had that pick?

    I don’t think they would have.

    IMO, if Bargnani was available lower in the draft then the Spurs would definitely have been interested in him … as the Raptors should have been, as well.


    re: “We had 2 guards we were committed to and we have a Chris Bosh.”

    The Raptors only 2 commitments SHOULD have been to Bosh (5) & Calderon (1).

    re: the trade proposal I made before

    I think you might be under-estimating just how good a Wing player Al Thornton is developing into … in conjunction with what would be coming back Toronto’s way in a subsequent trade for TJ Ford, which would become a viable possibility if the Raptors had a capable back-up PG on their roster like Brevin Knight.


  21. FLUXLAND said

    Bosh is a 4 in the L. He can’t compete at the 5 night in and night out… he’s not Elton Brand.

    He’s not a 5 for most of the reasons you listed.. he can’t do all those things.

    Bosh hates playing with Jose. I cannot believe you don’t see that.
    The problem with Jose is that he needs lower skilled players that can adjust to him in order to be successful. TO has allowed him to do that. I guarantee you if he had to play with players that are more talented, who require the ball in certain spots, he couldn’t deliver and would fail. This is why Chris hates playing with him.

    Your whole argument is based on skill. On paper. You are forgetting that selecting a player is a lot more then about his skills.

    Again, ALL things considered, not skills only, Andrea was the right choice for the Raps.

    “What the Raptors needed at the time of the 2006 Draft was a Top Tier Wing Man, 6′6-6′9 and very athletic, who could develop into a Prime-Time scorer (slash, shoot, post-up, iso & make FT’s) in the NBA.”

    THIS IS WHO ANDREA IS GOING TO BE. slash – check, shoot- check, post up- dear god someone help him, iso – someone help him please and tell him to stop pump faking every shot, FT – check)
    The guy scored 16 in a q the other night.. and don’t forget the playoffs last year..all those shots. I dunno how you don’t see what he is going to become.

    “The Raptors did not need Andrea Bargnani (7′, 3-pt shooter, who can pass the ball but is an ‘average’ athlete, at best, a poor defender & rebounder with a minimal Low Post presence).”

    ALL THINGS THAT ARE BEING WORKED ON – posting up and rebounding should be top priority.

    No, they shouldn’t have. I cannot believe the fact you are ignoring other intangibles that have nothing to do with skill and you are ignoring the fact that YOU CANNOT draft anyone you want.

    I have been following Andrea for a long long time. Regardless of what he had done in Europe: NO EURO PLAYER HAS EVER come into the L and slid right in or had immediate impact. It is different game and different beast. To expect anyone to flourish right way is unreasonable.
    And if you are going to say that experience counts for something – by that logic Anthony Parker should have been traded or released/waived a long time ago. I mean this guy was MJ in Europe,no? What happened? He just sux really bad? OH OK! PARKER IS GARBAGE! IF ANYONE GETS BOUNCED THIS SUMMER ITS PARKER.
    The Kandimam (so called cuz his last name ends with Kandi – get it right). An extreme is an understatement. Andrea’s situation is unique. AN EXTREME UNIQUE, at that. I think you need to take that into account.

    What I was trying to say is that the Spurs would have taken him late in the draft for sure and then teams like us end up missing on players like that. The Raps did the right thing.
    The trade looks great – I have nothing against AT- I was just saying that the Clippers would be dumb to take it.

    Your arguments are valid in a skills only context.(and in hindsight of course) There are just a lot more things to consider other then skill when drafting a player. And those are the things that you keep ignoring and that make Andrea the right choice for the Raps.

    p.s. please tell me you are joking about BK. I’m not a big fan of player that change 15 (ok 8)different teams in less then 10 years. You don’t think there is a problem there?

  22. khandor said


    Based on your previous message, it’s apparent that you and I see the game of basketball differently … and, you know what … I don’t have the need to convince you (or others) that you’re wrong and I’m right.

    You are free to hold the opinions you hold right now.

    If time goes by and you realize that you were wrong and I was right … that’s tremendous.

    If time goes by and you realize that you were right and I was wrong then … I will tip my hat to you.

    If you disagree with what I’ve written here … for example, about Chris Bosh (being best suited to play at the 5 position in the NBA) or Andrea Bargnani (not being what the Raptors needed at the time of the 2006 Draft) or the Euro pro experience or the value of Brevin Knight, etc., etc., etc., … and you would like to ASK ME A QUESTION about my perceptions (that might be different than yours), then feel free to do just that and I will do my best to provide you with a response that you can understandBUT what I am NOT interested in doing is arguing needlessly with you (or anybody else) on Arsenalist’s blog.



    In Peace, Victory & Excellence.

    [PS. If you’d like to go back and forth about a specific issue then … I think you know where you can reach me directly … and we can discuss something ad infinitum.]

  23. FLUXLAND said


    so i guess its checkers not chess… disappointing i must say

    debates are not surveys…

    i thought i made my points and raised questions about your perception in my “message”… i didn’t realize i had to include questions to help you understand what it is that I see “wrong” in your “message”

    i am not arguing – i am debating (are you sure you know the difference?)

    the fact its happening on this here blog is because you raise your points here, not on your blog… hence i challenge them here….

    i am sure arsenalist doesn’t mind the traffic or the comment count and if he has an issue i’m sure he would let me know…

  24. khandor said

    Here’s just one example of what I’m talking about.

    I said that Bosh is a 5 in the NBA.

    You said that Bosh is a 4.

    I’m right and you are wrong.

    Now … what would you like us to do about it? (at least, on this site)

    PS. Chess & checkers have nothing to do with it.

    re: bosh at 5 or 4

    Tonight … what position is Bosh playing according to you?

    How about Nesterovic?

    cuz … in the game that I’m watching Chris is playing 5 and Rasho is playing 4.

    “is” – should be considered

    i dunno it says F next to his name and C next to Rasho

    what they actually play (mostly CB$) night in and night play in play out depends on a lot of things

  25. FLUXLAND said

    “is” – should be considered

    i dunno it says F next to his name and C next to Rasho

    what they actually play (mostly CB4) night in and night out and play in play out depends on a lot of things

  26. khandor said

    Now that Sam Vincent seems to have finally figured out the Boykins vs Ford match-up let’s see how well things go for the rest of this game.

  27. khandor said


    That’s an interesting ‘edit’ of my message #14.


  28. khandor said

    oops … “message #14″ should read as ” message #24″


  29. khandor said

    If Calderon cannot keep Boykins out of the lane … the BObcats are about to regain the lead.

  30. khandor said

    Arsenalist … you (& FLUX) might want to re-visit that last ‘edit’.

    :-) :-) :-)

  31. FLUXLAND said

    the implosion continues… the playoffs are coming and Jose is folding like a paper tent in the rain… FAST!

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