Arsenalist

The Toronto Raptors Blog with an Arsenal touch

What a disgrace!

Posted by Arsenalist on March 14, 2008

Toronto Raptors 105, Denver Nuggets 137

My puke bucket was full midway through the first quarter. After suffering through a few more minutes of watching the Raptors get their ass absolutely spanked by the Nuggets, Jack Armstrong dropped a gem, and I’m pseudo-quoting:

If your plan is to outscore teams and you start playing the better ones, you’re not going to win.

If you stuck around to watch the fourth quarter (which is my duty as a blogger), you would’ve heard him drop another one:

If the Raptors matchup against Washington, Cleveland, Orlando or whoever, do they have what it takes to win 4 games? I’d say ‘no’. Can they stop a team by playing “down and dirty”? I don’t know.

O wise Jack, you see right through the facade of this team. We can beat the bad teams but once you stick us against an opponent of half-decent quality, we’re in deep trouble. The flaws of this squad were apparent and out in the open for everybody to see. We knew Bryan Colangelo’s experiment had holes but that they were this big, we didn’t know. And even if we did know, didn’t want to believe. This West coast trip is showcasing just how misconstrued the idea that the Raptors have any sort of depth really is. Take Bosh out and we’ll struggle in the D-League, that’s not even hyperbole, we lack the strength, ability and desire to compete at a consistent level against above average opposition. If you stick this team in the West, we’ll be bottom three every time. Colangelo has a lot of work to do and it’s got to start in the upcoming draft and off-season. If there’s one good thing that comes out of a loss like this it’s that you get an indication of who the people you want to weed out are and who’s still competing in the face of adversity.

This insufferable display of deplorable defense was a sight to behold and remember. I have not seen a Raptors team play this bad in a long, long time, I remember this Clipper game from ages ago (forget which year, maybe even 10 years ago) where the Raptors got embarrassed and blown out of the building. I thought I’d never see that day again but today matched that. We gave up 79 points in the first half, we couldn’t prevent a single Nugget from penetrating the lane. We couldn’t rotate out to any of their shooters, not even the first one out of the pass. We never covered the guy leaking out, we never provided help when a teammate was beaten (hell, we didn’t even bother calling screens out), we couldn’t take away the drive or the shot, we just laid down and waited Denver to pummel us in every which way. And they did, they killed us like we haven’t been killed before. Utter embarrassment and humiliation. Total degradation.

There’s nothing much to say, if you saw the game you know how bad it was. But I’d like to touch on how unmotivated, unprepared and lacking a plan this team came out tonight. There wasn’t an emphasis on doing a singular thing, we couldn’t contain Iverson, ‘Melo, Camby or anybody else on the Nuggets. We allowed every single player to have a great game and didn’t have an idea of just how we were going to try to win this game. Double Iverson? Front ‘Melo? Get Camby in foul trouble? Force Anthony Carter to create? Force perimeter jumpshots? Collapse on ‘Melo? These are just some of the strategies that we could’ve used but we did nothing. We played man-defense for most of the game and got burned every single time the Nuggets put the ball on the floor. We never stood a chance because we didn’t have a damn clue on how to even approach this game. Typical freestyling, only this time even the effort wasn’t there.

Calderon and Ford both stunk and TJ played as disinterested as ever. They combined for 9 points and Bargnani had 6 in 13 minutes. Rasho and Parker carried the load, the latter’s 15 points coming almost entirely in the first quarter. That’s when this was still sort of a game, by the time it ended the score was 44-23 and garbage time had officially begun. The rest of the game was a display of Denver athleticism, creativity, desire and skill. The Raptors ended up looking like clowns with careless turnovers, forced passes, lazy defense and not to mention body language that would’ve made Zack Randolph blush.

Sure, Bosh is out but how hard and how long can you ride that excuse? I don’t care if you’re dressing 8 players and 3 of them are gimps, you still have to come out and compete. Nobody has a problem that you get blown out by 30, it’s the way you get blown that says a lot too. Speaking in intangibles, this team lacks toughness, grit, desire and emotion. Speaking in basketball terms, they lack the lateral quicks to stay with opposing guards, they lack the agility to play interior defense, they lack the physicality of playing a gritty hard-nosed contest and finally, they lack the instruction to do any of the above. Chris Bosh is injured but that doesn’t mean you get a free pass to lay an egg every time.

Sacramento is our only shot of winning a game on this trip, they’ll be playing a back-to-back (Phoenix) and we’ll have a days rest. No excuses.

Liners:

  • Jason Kapono was put in to guard Carmelo Anthony.
  • What is Kleiza’s problem? He was jawing at Jay Triano for a good 10 minutes and got T’d up for it.
  • Chuck/Jack much more enjoyable to listen to than Chuck/Leo.
  • Denver leaked out on every possession but the Raptors never adjusted.
  • Aside from a couple blocks, Anthony owned Moon and penetrated at will. Iverson got into the paint at will, almost embarrassingly easily leaving Ford and Calderon a glimpse of what true talent looks like.
  • Wasn’t there talk of a VC for Iverson swap years back? Should’ve probably made that if it was on the table.
  • Another Friday, another loss. This is the 6th straight time we’ve lost on a Friday night, the last victory was at home against Milwaukee on January 25th.
  • If there’s one thing i expect to see from a Sam Mitchell coached team it’s a consistent effort. Screw the X’s and O’s but the effort should always be there because he’s supposed to be a motivator before a basketball coach.
  • Circle March 23rd on your calendars. That’s when we play Denver at home. How the Raptors come out in that game after tonight’s humiliation will speak even greater volumes about this team.
  • Nights like these test your Raptors fanhood.

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43 Responses to “What a disgrace!”

  1. AltRaps said

    You know something? I don’t know if you saw Sam’s post-game media scrum, but I really think these guys were “prepared”. I think the coaches did tell them what to expect and, surprise, the players just didn’t come through. Sam was visibly pissed and saying the right things about baseline drives, etc. Parker’s answers and Jose’s answers echoed what Sam said, so obviously it was spoken about in the locker room.

    Sam’s play calling sucks at times, but I do honestly think that scouting has improved over the years, but if you have guys like Jamario who can’t remember his own plays, how do you expect him to remember what the other team is going to do?

    Also, what’s your opinion on the Raptors suing Spain over Jorge’s insurance stuff?

    Petty?

    Wonder what Jose thinks…, never mind Jorge.

  2. arsenalist said

    I think that’s just business, nothing personal. I don’t think it’ll have a bearing on signing Jose. Spainish Fed agreed to a deal and they got to hold up their end of the deal.

    I don’t know about Sam being prepared or not, ultimately you got to be judged by what’s happening on the court.

  3. AltRaps said

    Agreed, to an extent.

    Not to pick on Jamario, but since it was said on the record, it’s the only real “finger pointing” piece we can use, but if you run plays for the guy and he forgets the plays, who do you fault?

    Again, much of the Raptors miscues on D are basic run-of-the-mill miscues. Stuff that you should be able to correct. We all see it, which leads you to assume the coaches see it. Also remember that each assistant coach is assigned different teams. Therefore, it is that coaches assignment to get the scouting done and inform the players. So, if that isn’t happening, then you have 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 bad coaches, not just one. As much faith as I have lost in the front office, I can’t believe that this is the case.

    I think Sam’s frustration when he says “we need to find the guys that will get out there and defend” and “playing defense is more important than scoring a lot of points” is legit. I still would love to see him name names, but he won’t. I think if he does, it might publicly motivate some guys.

    Who knows anymore….they are probably already booking their return flights to their hometowns.

  4. cuzzy said

    Yep Friday Night Frights continues…….

    I gave up at the half

    http://cuzoogle.com/2008/03/15/seriously-did-anyone-watch-the-second-half/

  5. PukeBucket said

    Trust in BC and our young talent will grow and Bargs will be special and the Raps have depth and TJ/Jose best PG combo in universe and wait for the Cap Space Year. Blah. Blah. Blah. Leafs Redux.

  6. khandor said

    Arsenalist,

    It’s too easy to kick a man when he’s down … but

    ——————————————————————–
    re: We knew Bryan Colangelo’s experiment had holes but that they were this big, we didn’t know
    ——————————————————————–

    I beg to differ.
    Some of us did know, exactly, this.
    And … so, much more.

    Unfortunately, far too often … on certain unscrupulous web sites – e.g. RealGM, Scott Carefoot’s site, etc. – MLSE apologists’ (ie Kool-Aid drunk, totalitarian corporation ‘lackies’) have done their best to obliterate legitimate examinations from the landscape in Raptorland, such that the overall fan mass is only now (finally!) beginning to re-evaluate the root cause(s) of this charade.

    Kudos to independent site operators like you! … and, keep up your good work!

    ——————————————————————–
    re: and if we did, didn’t want to believe.
    ——————————————————————–

    (in general) This has been a major, major problem with the professional sports franchise ‘fanatics’ in Toronto for the last 41 years.

    ——————————————————————–
    re: This West coast trip is showcasing just how misconstrued the idea that the Raptors have any sort of depth really is.
    ——————————————————————–

    Do NOT make the mistake of misdiagnosing precisely what the specific problem(s) is (are) with this team, right now … and ‘throw the (proverbial) baby out with the bath water’.

    There is legitimate depth on the current roster.

    Unfortunately, it is ill-conceived depth … with certain key pieces currently mis-aligned with another … being orchestrated by a masquerading NBA executive who:

    i) does not know what a future League MVP looks like, on his own roster (see the ‘Nash trade’ with Phoenix);
    ii) is a corporate ‘bean-counter’ (see the ‘Joe Johnson for Boris Diaw’ in Phoenix) behind a facade of ‘exquisite tastes’;
    iii) does not know what a Main-Frame PG looks like, on his own roster AND, therefore, committed the ‘Cardinal Sin’ of trading ‘quasi-legitimate’ Big (Charlie V, #2 in ROY voting) for ‘physically-damaged-super-talented-highly-individualistic’ Small (TJ Ford, who Bucks’ management was happy to rid themselves of) in the NBA;
    iv) made the mistake of letting Mike James walk away ‘for free’;
    v) after completely lucking out with the Ping Pong Balls, made the serious, serious, serious mistake of selecting a 21 year old, 7-ft, 3-pt shooting specialist, European Pro with the 2006 No. 1 Overall Draft Pick;
    vi) made the serious, serious, serious mistake of retaining a head coach who once directed his team, in the NBA, to a 27-55 W-L record;
    vii) made the mistake of letting Morris Peterson walk away ‘for free’ AND signing two ‘back-up’ Wing players to replace him (ie Delfino & Kapono), neither of whom has the level of ‘physicality’ required in the NBA to be a major minute player with an elite level team;
    viii) made the mistake of … etc., etc., etc.

    ——————————————————————–
    re: Take Bosh out and we’ll struggle in the D-League, that’s not even hyperbole,
    ——————————————————————–

    ‘Baby & bath water’ mistake, Exhibit A … understandably, though, out of utter frustration.

    ——————————————————————–
    re: we lack the strength, ability and desire to compete at a consistent level against above average opposition.
    ——————————————————————–

    Incorrect.

    At this level of competition … it’s a ‘Chess Match’, pure (plain) & simple … at which, the Raptors’ ‘Golden Boy’ (with a ‘silver spoon’) Grandmaster, at present, has his pieces poorly configured on the board … that’s really all it is, right now … AND, as a result, is getting his ‘a** (seriously) kicked’.

    A really top notch NBA GM … should be able to see these things, plus a whole lot more … and get this team out of the current mess it’s in.

    17 games left … and counting.

  7. khandor said

    PS. The ‘poor’ body language and ‘overall lack of effort on defense’ displayed during last night’s game by a few different members of the team was (truly) unfortunate, disappointing and (most of all) unacceptable, for a 1st Class NBA franchise … and, in fact, SHOULD be the ‘(final) straw that breaks the camel’s back’ for certain players, in the eyes of management & the coaching staff. Will it be, though? Somehow, methinks, not.

  8. Raps Fan said

    the dagger for me was camby hitting that three to end the 1st quarter. does anyone have any idea what is going on? everything is falling apart at the same time.

    i have to believe that a lot of these problems will work themselves out when bosh gets back…if i don’t, then whats the point of watching games until there are wholesale changes made?

  9. […] – Arsenalist […]

  10. FLUXLAND said

    Arsenalist:

    Chuck/Jack – 1000% better then Chuck/Leo .. except when Jack calls a JS a “jimmy”.. not sure why but that sounds wrong.

    Can anyone find out what exactly was going on between Kleiza and Triano? I’ve see Jay say “Come here” while Kleiza was shooting free throws. Also, I love how Jack was ready to scrap: “I got your back Jay!” Said it loud too. And who the f is this Kleiza guy? Gets 40plus in a game and now he thinks he’s Larry freaking Bird? Your team is killing us and you are talking smack… classy, CHAMP.. classy!

    “Denver leaked out on every possession…”
    my girl last night (who just started paying attention to ball) somewhere in the 3rd on ANOTHER fast break in an annoyed voice: “How come they keep doing that to us? It’s so easy for them!”
    Me: “Cuz we suck!”
    Frustration from a “not even close to semi-casual” rookie fan! How bad are the Raps!

    Also, AltRaps is right: its past the coaching now.. the players are now acting like .. ready for this .. the NYK. At least that’s what I see with the body language. And you gotta love Sam.. I think he’s ready to put on a uni and show these guys how you play though ball or he’s going to start fighting people in the locker room at halftime. I highly recommend the latter, these guys need to effin weak up – the playoffs are knocking on the door!

    Speaking of.. this is how I feel after last night:

  11. Pickstar said

    Altraps–>

    This team has talent but is run by a coach with no common sense. If your team is not doing what you are preaching then you have lost as a coach and that reflects bad on you and your ability to coach. Every post game all i hear Sam say is well we tell our guys to get back on defense to box out …etc, however he keeps claiming that they aren’t doing it. Well then your team is not responding to your coaching methods, or simply your clearly aren’t making the right defensive adjustments to get your defense to get back, or the right rotations to play better defense.
    Like i watch Kapono play, and I keep trying to figger out why we dont run him off any screens ( like three for rip) or decent drive penetrations and then pass him the ball (any offense play would do). I have rarely seen him with an open shot. Carlos delfino has taken more threes than Kapono, while kapono has had more backdoor cuts then delfino, which makes no sense. Its evident that sam mitchell is not doing what is required to get the best out of ALL his players. Last min. shot clock situation we run a tj ford ISO. Its a good play once in awhile (AND ONLY IF YOUR PG WOULD PASS THE BALL – which I doubt he will ever do) but not all the time, because all it comes down to for the opposition is can you live with Tj ford wining the game on a difficult shot.
    I have faith in BC, or I would like to believe so, but you cannot rely on an un-Athletic team to win you day in day out. It just wont happen, they wont be able to keep up. All the areas we fail in require athleticism and desire ie. Rebounding, Blocked shots, and man to man defense (which we for some odd reason we love to keep playing -esp with athletic teams like Denver and GS- to show our defensive flaws to the rest of the world)- for fucks sakes play some zone and clog the paint to cover that shit up.

    Also like to mention that Jamerio Moon needs to be removed out of the lineup – it has been long overdue.

  12. FLUXLAND said

    *seen and *wake that is! lol

    khandor: I beg to differ, Sir! re: BC

    (i) this also the same guy that drafted him. So what does that say? Also, what did Nash do in DAL? – nothing. What did he do in PHX after the came back – nothing. I’d rather have a Finals MVP on my team then a League MVP anyday. If anything you could criticize the Jason Kidd trade. But he too, did nothing. Seem like BC is getting stuck with PGs that can’t take him to the promised land. (I know Jose is not his – still funny how he inherited him)

    (ii) again I’d rather have a bean counter with flexibility and a decent record with an ensemble of “Semi-Pro” All-Stars then be where the NYK are at. Complete effin financial circus with players no one wants.

    (iii) trades are fun to look at 3 years down the line when you can say: “Yeah if we only kept that guy”. Sorry, at the time, we needed at PG and guys like CV are a dime a dozen – good PGs are not. Plus CV missed how many games and is only a 10 and 5 guy – a dime a dozen. Also, how many guards did the Bucks have that year? No wonder they were not too reluctant to let him go. They have Redd for crying out loud.

    (iv) Mike James? Please tell me you are joking. Letting him go for “free” is not a loss believe me. Where is he at now? Bounced by Houston.. getting used by NOH and on his way out of the L.. trust me.

    (v) Again… are you kidding? How is that a serious mistake? We need ed at the time and still do interior presence. You had no idea Gay or Roy were going to be this good. He ain’t Kwame or the Kandiman.. those my friend are serious serious serious mistakes.

    (vi) Please name another option (of coaches willing to take the job). Do you remember that years roster? HOFFA dude.. like c’mon!

    (vii) see (iii) .. all those players are the same guy.

  13. khandor said

    FLUX,

    * Include the Jason Kidd trade, as well.

    * Colangelo seems to ‘get stuck’ a lot.

    * I’d rather have a top notch GM … who isn’t a bean-counter.

    * Yes, the Knicks are a sad joke.

    * At the time, the Raptors did not need a PG.

    * I agree, guys like CV are a dime a dozen … but, CV should have been traded for a different type of asset … not TJ Ford.

    * Michael Redd is a 2-guard not a PG.

    * I didn’t say that Toronto should have kept Mike James. What I said was that the Raptors should not have let him walk away ‘for free’. There’s a big difference, right? An expiring asset like MIke James should have been traded at the deadline that year. End of Discussion.

    * Toronto should have traded down in the 2006 Draft, given their position in the league, at the time (27-55) … and, instead, picked someone like Tyrus, LaMarcus, Brandon or Rudy, plus at least one other quality player, plus at least 1 future 1st Round draft pick.

    No team should ever use the No. 1 Overall Draft Pick to choose a 21 yr old, 7-ft, 3-pt shooting specialist, European pro … who is lacking the type of athleticism it takes to REBOUND and DEFEND at his position in the NBA for an elite level team. Never. Ever.

    * Thom Thibodeaux.

    You’re most welcome. :-)

  14. Johnn19 said

    Pretty terible game, not enough effort on defense, a real team effort. Looking at a positive, they can’t play any worse can they?

    Maybe this is the bottom , with the only direction up !! Let’s remember we expected them to go 0-5 on this trip. So far 0-3 & counting. A loss is still a loss whether by 1 pt or 30 pts no diff.

    With only 1 Star player who is the leader on offense and defense missing for 8 games the results have been pretty predictable. When they get back home Bosh should be back and the sched is a little softer. They definately are unable to compete with the West on the road.

  15. arsenalist said

    Johnn19, I expected them to go 0-5 but I didn’t expect us to give 79 points in a half and show no effort or will whatsoever. As I mentioned in one of the liners:

    If there’s one thing I expect to see from a Sam Mitchell coached team it’s a consistent effort. Screw the X’s and O’s but the effort should always be there because he’s supposed to be a motivator before a basketball coach.

    That’s what disappointing more than the L itself.

  16. FLUXLAND said

    khandor

    – either way .. your Nash trade argument carries no merit as League MVP means nothing. See: KG, Nash, AI, Dirk, Mailman

    – in this case it was an observation of inheriting Jose (whom I am claiming is a clone of Nash) and getting stuck at the PG position. As in keeps getting fools gold. See above.

    – top notch GM? OK.. the guy only wins EOY. Please define top notch GM.

    – Yes.. we did. Jose and DM are not taking anyone to the promised land. TJ could with the right players, btw.

    – either way he can bring up and take care of the ball. Bucks didn’t need him as they had MoWilliams and CBell. So, the whole “they were happy to get rid of him” deal doesn’t hold water.

    – u missed the point. There is no loss in letting him go free. READ: he was hurting us so who cares. What the heck were you gonna get for Mike James exactly? Umm.. yeah, thanks!

    – again you like to look at the past and say “If only”. And regarding that point, anticipating you were gonna say Gay or Roy, I already said you had no idea they would be that good. See above. Hindsight arguments do not make sense my friend. Re Bargnani: We needed inside presence..and he proved something in Europe. He has the ability to rebound and defend. The issue is he has been asked to do everything or something different every night while adjusting to the L; therefore not allowing him to be extremely solid at anything… yet.

    – ?

  17. Raps Fan said

    fluxland, you couldn’t be happy drafting bargnani, are you? again, at the time, he didn’t fill a need the raptors had. the raptors needed a big who can bang in the post and rebound, not a big, who gets banged and prefers to shoot. aldridge would have been the way to go.

    in all fairness, gay and roy weren’t projected to be as good as they are, and i don’t know many who would have taken either of them over aldridge.

  18. khandor said

    FLUX,

    * Either way … it was you missed the point about the comment, re: Nash’s trade

    The point was … Colangelo has a hard time identifying quality basketball talent accurately … which has been exemplified in his major trades, e.g. Kidd for Marbury; Nash for Muresan, et. al.; JJ for Diaw; CV for Ford.

    League MVP or Finals MVP … is irrelevant, in this case.

    Hopefully you get the point this time.

    * I agree that Colangelo has a habit of getting stuck with Fool’s Gold (except that … you are wrong if you think that Jose fits into this category)

    * The EOY Award is little more than a popularity contest and rarely goes to the ‘best GM in the league that year’.

    * Define Top notch GM? For starters … try someone whose team has won at least 1 NBA title or, at least, made it to the NBA Finals, once.

    Your boy doesn’t qualify.

    * At that stage in the Raptors’ development it was not necessary to have/obtain a PG who is capable of taking the team all the way to the promised land.

    * Name 1 Point Guard in the History of the NBA that is similar to TJ Ford (in terms of size, strength, quickness, offensive skill set, Leadership, unselfishness, decision-making ability, Rebounding & Defense) and has taken his team to the NBA championship, as the Main-Frame PG?

    * Based on what I read at the time … the Bucks were happy to get rid of Ford as a ‘malcontent’ … not as an ‘extra’ guard … when they also had ‘non-malcontents’ like Bell and Williams on their roster.

    * You still don’t get THE point about letting Mike James walk for ‘free’.

    The asset loss, while getting nothing back in return, was symptomatic of player personnel mismanagement. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Trading Mike James for a pick, or for cash, or for your great-grand-mother (even) … would still have been better than letting him walk for ‘free’ … especially if granny can handle the rock a bit :-)

    * Maybe you had no waying of knowing that Brandon or Rudy were going to be THIS good … but … and it’s a pretty big one … you have no way of knowing whether or not I fit into this category, as well. Do you? :-)

    * Bargnani provides no inside presence. Whoever thought he would was grossly mistaken and … simply put … isn’t a top flight judge of athletic basketball talent.

    * Bargnani proved nothing in Europe.

    * Bargnani does not have the ability to REBOUND & DEFEND … as a No. 1 Overall Draft Pick should, i.e. with explosive athleticism.

    He was a solid pick … later in the draft … not at No. 1 Overall. End of Discussion.

    Once, again … you’re most welcome. :-)

    PS. Instead of using Arsenalist’s blog to debate this issue with me … you might think of coming by my site for a visit. That way would be easier for Arsenalist, you, me and the others who frequent this site. Not a request, just a friendly suggestion. :-)

  19. FLUXLAND said

    this is fun!

    – again: “Colangelo has a hard time identifying quality basketball talent accurately” – HE DRAFTED NASH! Marbury was sick at the time. Trading Nash turned out to nothing as Nash has done nothing.

    Jose-jury is out.. let’s see him in the playoffs. Plus, what’s going on lately? Is TJ breathing down his neck while the playoffs are coming and the pressure vice is turning? Crumbling like a cookie with 17 games to go, including the above mentioned possibilities are not an indication as someone that does NOT fit into the Fools Gold category. In fact, Sir, you may be buying it as well! In all fairness, I am willing to wait and see what he does in the playoffs (under the assumption we make it there) before I officially make him a member of the club. (Turnovers are up too I think… in short, his stock is dropping faster then you think.)

    – agreed. But he did turn the team around the same year he got there. No small feat. Also, that was the second time he won it. You are right, he’s a dummy!

    – My boy doesn’t qualify? Hmm.. I dunno, I do remember Charles Barkley and PHX in the Finals in ’93. You, Sir, are disqualified!

    – 1 guard? Umm.. Allen Iverson.. but hey just for you: and Isiah Thomas

    – who cares.. they didn’t get rid of TJ cuz of lack of skill.

    – Yes I do get the point. You don’t get mine. I am not greedy. Cut your losses and move on. And it’s not player “personnel mismanagement” if NO ONE is willing to give you anything for him.

    – No, but based on everything you are typing, I made a safe assumption. lol

    – He may not provide “inside presence” per say. However, he does require attention …allowing CB4 more room to work the middle. Who was providing that before? Rasho, Lord knows is useless. He is versatile and big with tons of upside… Dirk wasn’t an MVP right away was he? So at the least, he is a trade asset in the future. Also, he is much further along the Dirk was at the same point in his career.

  20. khandor said

    FLUX,

    Let’s go 1 at a time, shall we, so as not to make it too messy, ok?

    #1. Better double check your facts … re: who the Phoenix GM was in ’93. :-)

    I’ll wait for your reply to that one, first … before invalidating the rest … in equal fashion.

    You’re welcome, once again.

  21. khandor said

    btw … individuals like you can be interesting to deal with.

  22. Raps Fan said

    uhmm…did he put tj in the same breath as iverson and isiah (the player, not the coach/gm)? that’s, uhh…a stretch man, come on.

    wasn’t it colangelo sr at the helm during that run?

  23. FLUXLAND said

    You know what.. I have no idea who the manager was.. I do know BC’s dad was the owner.. that makes him qualified enough as I know BC was within the organization in some capacity. Minor detail..you cannot say that does not meet your “top notch” criteria.

    Raps Fan: I would… but to satisfy your comparison criteria how about Ty Lue? And don’t tell me thats a stretch. :P

  24. arsenalist said

    khandor and fluxland are taking ovaaa! Raps Fan, I wouldn’t get involved in this debate, I’m wondering how deep it’ll get. Great entertainment though.

    Pickstar, I’m all for Moon being relegated to the bench because I think the honeymoon has been over for a while. His unwillingness to drive is frustrating and his man-defense fluctuates from good to horrible on a quarter by quarter basis. But who do we start instead? Delfino? He’s about as inconsistent as Moon and Graham stinks. I hate having a D-Leaguer as our starting SF but right now we don’t have many options either.

    If you’re going to recommend Bargnani starting at 3, I might agree with you if for nothing than to see how the experiment works. But with the playoffs fast approaching, is now the time to tinker with the lineup? I don’t know. Maybe we have nothing to lose by doing so.

  25. khandor said

    FLUX,

    ——————————————————————–
    re: Minor detail..you cannot say that does not meet your “top notch” criteria.
    ——————————————————————–

    I don’t have to ‘say’ a thing.

    All you (and others) need to do is … be able to read.

    :-)

    Once you’ve cried uncle on that one, first, then we can proceed.

    (if you can’t do that, then, there’s no point in us going any further … cause you are living in different world than the rest of us, and will never be convinced by me that you’re wrong about anything else)

    Hit him back if/when you’re ready for more. :-)

  26. FLUXLAND said

    Is that to say you are weak and tired.. ready to resign? You look like the Raps last night…useless.

    Re: “say” – as in making statement (verbal or written)

    I think Brian was an assistant GM. Minor detail:
    a. u cannot type that he has never been to the Finals
    b. if that minor detail DQs him.. and you really think Brian is not
    a top notch GM… then you are right.. we have nothing to discuss.

    Funny, how that is the only thing your retorted about. WEAK!

    “will never be convinced by me that you’re wrong about anything else” – very true.. you arguments are weak. Believe me I have not prob. admitting I am wrong. You just don’t make a lot sense.

    It does make me wonder how you came about these grandioso ideas how a team should be run. I mean you hate bean counters – ok, Isiah.

  27. khandor said

    FLUX,

    ——————————————————————–
    * Define Top notch GM? For starters … try someone whose team has won at least 1 NBA title or, at least, made it to the NBA Finals, once.
    ——————————————————————–

    Are you seriously trying to suggest that what I needed to do for you to understand clearly what I meant was to include … in that definition you asked for … the words “as that team’s GM” after the word ‘once’ (with a comma added in after the letter ‘e’)?

    ROTFLOL

    As I’ve said to you already, once you’ve cried uncle, on this specific issue … then, and only then, can (and will) we move on.

    Maybe you don’t really want to move on?

    :-)

  28. jason said

    someone should start a fire sam mitchell website

    http://www.FireSamMitchell.com

  29. khandor said

    Calls to fire Sam Mitchell, at this point, are little more than ‘silly talk’ … when the fact is … Sam is improving as an NBA head coach … and is gradually beginning to make certain decisions that reflect this reality … at least, once in a while.

    (whether or not others can see this for themselves, or admit it, is a different matter entirely)

    An example … from Doug Smith’s column today:

    ——————————————————————–
    http://www.thestar.com/Sports/NBA/article/346557

    After being hammered 137-105 in Denver on Friday night – a game that set a handful of team records for defensive ineptitude – Mitchell pulled back from his planned video session and got the Raptors on the court.

    He figures that’s the best way to hold a team together.

    “(It’s) just by having a chance to practice together, by having a chance to get on the court and work and do team defence, offence, rebounding, making the extra pass, communicating, pushing each other getting on each other, banging a little bit,” he said of the day’s activity. “We needed that.”
    ——————————————————————–

    A ‘bad’ NBA coach would have made his team watch the videotape of the ‘Debacle in Denver’ … in its entirity.

    The fact is … Sam Mitchell no longer fits (neatly) into this (all too easy to criticize) category.

  30. FLUXLAND said

    LOL … that’s funny… i like your detail picking.. hanging on to a thread to back up your argument ..

    It bothers me how everyone is ready to dismantle the Raps ship because we are going thru a though time… fire Sam … fire BC.. trade TJ…trade Kapono… keep Jose and Parker and never make the playoffs again.. it’s too funny!

  31. khandor said

    In other words …

    Q1. What’s the key to fixing the current malaise with this team?

    A1. In the immortal words of that profound (and reknowned) ‘Hoops Philosopher’, A.I.,

    “… Practice! … Practice! … Practice! … Man, what we’re talking about is Practice! …”

    FLUX,

    What’s equally humourous … in a way … is your seeming inability to admit when (in fact) you’ve been ‘caught out running for 1st base’.

    Peshaw … perhaps, I shouldn’t have thought you capable of doing so, in the first place.

    :-)

  32. FLUXLAND said

    I HAVE NOT! LOL…you are hanging on to minute details.. its like saying that Avery J. didn’t benefit from hanging out with Popovich as an assistant … what’s more funny is that you are “saying” that because he didn’t actually hold the position .. the experience he gained as and ASSISTANT gm is irrelevant?

    You are taking away from the guy based on a technicality.

    It is now becoming sad… but hey if it makes you feel better.. BC is NOT a “top notch” GM based on held title not experience. Sad, really. You are officially the only person to think so, as every team in the L would take him as a GM.

    I already stated I was… you are justing being petty.

    At least we agree on Sam.. no way we should let this guy go.. and all the fans that bitch about his X&Os are missing the point.

  33. khandor said

    FLUX,

    Look …

    It was YOU who asked ME for MY definition, correct?

    I then provided YOU with MY definition, correct?

    And, then … when YOU referenced the ’93 Finals appearance by Phoenix, as somehow fulfilling MY defenition … what I then said to YOU was that,

    “Your boy doesn’t qualify.”

    Now, the simple fact is that … according to MY definition … not by a thread, LOL, but as per ‘the requirements’ of MY definition … Bryan Colangelo DOES NOT qualify as being a top notch GM in the NBA … which doesn’t mean that he isn’t a ‘good’ GM or that ‘other teams’ in the league wouldn’t also ‘be happy’ to have him in charge of their basketball operations … does it, FLUX?

    It’s not rocket science.

    It’s actually quite straight forward … writing, reading and comprehending a definition YOU asked ME to provide for YOU and then YOU having to meet THE criteria that was set by ME (not YOU).

    Get it?

    :-)

    Hopefully you do …

    :-)

    in which case, NOW, we can move on … thank YOU very much.

    :-)

    Moving on to the next Point you tried to make …

    ——————————————————————–
    – again: “Colangelo has a hard time identifying quality basketball talent accurately” – HE DRAFTED NASH! Marbury was sick at the time. Trading Nash turned out to nothing as Nash has done nothing.
    ——————————————————————–

    In terms of evaluating basketball talent/ability/effectiveness at the Point Guard position in the NBA … it’s strictly a NO CONTEST when the two players being compared are (i) Steve Nash and (ii) Stephon Marbury.

    IMHO … those who would suggest that Marbury is (or was, at the time of that trade) a better NBA Point Guard than Nash … do not understand how to evaluate NBA players properly.

    Were you trying to suggest that Marbury is a better PG than Nash?

    Or, that Marbury, back then, WAS a better PG than Nash?

    Or, that a ‘top notch GM’ in the NBA, at that time, would (nay, SHOULD) have made ‘that’ trade to acquire Marbury for the Suns?

    Is this really what you’re trying to say?

    Yes or No.

    :-)

    ‘Top notch GM’ segue … while we’re waiting …

    Q1. You have a chance to sign as an unrestricted FA, either:

    a) Jason Kapono (Miami)
    b) Carlos Delfino (Detroit)
    c) Jarvis Hayes (Washington)

    Which one does a ‘top notch GM’ sign?

    [Hint: Are you watching Det v NO right now on ABC? … :-) … You should be.]

  34. khandor said

    Sayeth Hubie Brown … re: Pistons’ GM, Joe D … at the 05:00 mark of the 4thQ

    “You have to be willing to play D if you come here.”

  35. FLUXLAND said

    No, you said he didn’t qualify before I referenced to 93.

    I got it the entire time.. you are just so stuck on wanting me to say.. “Yes Khandor, you are the greatest.. we should all bow to you” that you are not willing to even conceive the fact that you assessment of his decision making is highly erroneous. Also clearly indicated by your definition of a “top notch” GM.

    I was saying that YES Marbuy was a better point guard at time of the trade. If you think otherwise, YOU do not understand how to evaluate NBA players properly. Not only that but you clearly have no clue as to what type of players they were at time or what was going on in the L at time.

    Again.. you like to play these what if hindsight games. The past is over with. The other thing that you don’t understand is that when a player signs with a team it changes the entire market and where the other players go. Your question cannot be answered as I don’t know what my needs are as the GM

  36. FLUXLAND said

    No, you said he didn’t qualify before I referenced to 93.

    I got it the entire time.. you are just so stuck on wanting me to say.. “Yes Khandor, you are the greatest.. we should all bow to you” that you are not willing to even conceive the fact that you assessment of his decision making is highly erroneous. Also clearly indicated by your definition of a “top notch” GM.

    I was saying that YES Marbuy was a better point guard at time of the trade. If you think otherwise, YOU do not understand how to evaluate NBA players properly. Not only that but you clearly have no clue as to what type of players they were at time or what was going on in the L at time.

    Again.. you like to play these what if hindsight games. The past is over with. The other thing that you don’t understand is that when a player signs with a team it changes the entire market and where the other players go. Your question cannot be answered as I don’t know what my needs are as the GM.

  37. khandor said

    For those that might be interested in knowing who I ‘might’ have been willing to hire, instead of Bryan Colangelo, if I was Richard Peddie/Larry Tanenbaum, to eventually run the Basketball Operations end of things for MLSE, in the aftermath of Rob Babcocks’ termination and the appointment of interim GM, Wayne Embry?

    Well, he was actually on display during today’s Pistons/Hornets game … if you were watching closely … and his name isn’t Joe Dumars.

    :-)

    [Hint: He is also not someone who I consider to be ‘a top notch GM’ in the NBA today.]

  38. khandor said

    FLUX,

    * The person playing hindsight games, here, isn’t me.

    * Yes, looking back through the thread, I did say that your boy didn’t qualify … according to my definition, prior to your Phoenix ’93 reference … I stand corrected on that much

    (see it isn’t difficult at all for me to knowledge when I’ve made an error)

    ——————————————————————–
    I was saying that YES Marbuy was a better point guard at time of the trade. If you think otherwise, YOU do not understand how to evaluate NBA players properly. Not only that but you clearly have no clue as to what type of players they were at time or what was going on in the L at time.
    ——————————————————————–

    FLUX,

    Marbury may have had the bigger ‘rep’ at the time, according to ‘popular opinion’ … but, IMO, that opinion would not have been shared by the ‘top notch GM’s’ in the NBA at that time.

    Nash … although he hadn’t yet hit it ‘big’ … has always been a ‘better’ PG than Marbury.

    If you disagree with this perception … that’s fine, you’re entiled to your opinion … and I won’t try to change it.

  39. khandor said

    Moving on to your next point …

    ——————————————————————–
    Jose-jury is out.. let’s see him in the playoffs. Plus, what’s going on lately? Is TJ breathing down his neck while the playoffs are coming and the pressure vice is turning? Crumbling like a cookie with 17 games to go, including the above mentioned possibilities are not an indication as someone that does NOT fit into the Fools Gold category.
    ——————————————————————–

    Jose has already captured a World Championship title.

    What’s going on lately … is that this entire team is being dragged down by the negative effect of re-integrating TJ Ford to the line-up, in the absence of Chris Bosh … AND because Sam Mitchell has made the decision to reduce his playing time, in order to accommodate Ford.

    If not for these two factors … Calderon’s productivity would not have dropped in recent games.

    Unlike TJ Ford … Calderon shares similar ‘characteristics’ with other PG’s who have led their teams to an NBA championship, in the history of this league.

  40. khandor said

    Segue #2 … from today’s LA Lakers @ Houston Rockets game

    “After Steve Nash … no one in this league runs the Pick & Roll better than Tracy McGrady.” – Jeff Van Gundy

    JVG has an exceptionally perceptive understanding of how NBA basketball is/SHOULD BE played.

    “Wow … what about a guy named Chris Paul?” – Mark Jackson (incredulously)

    “No one.” – Jeff Van Gundy

    Which was the absolutely perfect response, and 100% correct.

  41. khandor said

    The NBA wisdom being dropped by JVG today is right on the money.

    e.g.

    The ability to ‘switch’ on D vs the Pick Roll is a crucial aspect of top notch defense.

    Chuck Hayes has very quick feet … for a big man … which is part of what makes him such a good defender … and what makes this Rockets team so tough to play/score against.

    These are two great teams just going ‘at’ one another.

    JVG & Jackson are doing a great job, as well.

    e.g.

    “There’s my rookie of the year, right there … he’s impacted this team in terms of winning …” – JVG (speaking of Luis Scola)

    “Rookie of the year?” – MJ

    “Without question.” – JVG

  42. khandor said

    FLUX,

    Movin on to the next point you tried to make …

    ——————————————————————–
    re: – 1 guard? Umm.. Allen Iverson.. but hey just for you: and Isiah Thomas
    ——————————————————————–

    1) Iverson played the 2-Guard position … beside Eric Snow (PG) … when his 76ers team went to the NBA Finals.

    2) a. Isiah Lord Thomas, III, was 6-1, 180-185 lbs, when he led the ‘Bad Boyz’ to back-to-back NBA championships …

    http://www.nba.com/history/players/thomas_bio.html
    http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=THOMAIS01

    and, despite his diminuative stature, in the League back then … in fact,

    was a far ‘stronger’ (180+ compared to 165 lbs) and ‘taller’ (6-1 compared to a very generous 6-0 … since we all know that Ford is in fact closer to approx. 5-10/11)

    2) b. I’m not even going to bother comparing the advanced level ‘individual skill set’ of a Hall-of-Fame player, like Zeke, to the unsophisticated game of Mr. Ford … who still has time to develop his skills, at this level, but as of yet isn’t even in the same universe as ‘possibly the best little man to ever play the PG spot in the History of the NBA’.

  43. khandor said

    FLUX,

    And, finally, moving on to the last point you tried to make …

    ——————————————————————–
    re: – He may not provide “inside presence” per say. However, he does require attention …allowing CB4 more room to work the middle. Who was providing that before? Rasho, Lord knows is useless. He is versatile and big with tons of upside… Dirk wasn’t an MVP right away was he? So at the least, he is a trade asset in the future. Also, he is much further along the Dirk was at the same point in his career.
    ——————————————————————–

    1) The “attention” which Bargnani “requires” is NOT equivalent to “providing an inside presence” for the Raptors, given the ‘perimeter’ bent to AB’s ‘game’ (on offense) and his lack of Rebounding [3.8 RPG/#155] & Shot-blocking [0.45 BSPG/T-#76, ironically with Charlie V] (on defense) … to this point in his career.

    2) Dirk was chosen No. 9 in the 1998 NBA Draft … he WAS NOT selected as the No. 1 Overall Draft Pick that year.

    If Bargnani had been chosen No. 9 in the 2006 NBA Draft … we WOULD NOT be having this exchange.

    Dirk is not a top notch Rebounder, nor a top notch Interior Defender, and does NOT provide an ‘inside presence’ at all for the Mavericks.

    Suggesting that the Raptors needed to use the 2006 No. 1 Overall Draft Pick on a player who you are claiming is similar to Dirk … and, then claiming that said player would somehow fulfil their need for an ‘inside presence’, in the way Bargnani has, to this point… is a non-sensical position for you to take … since Dirk happens to be perimeter-focused Big, who won last year’s NBA MVP Award.

    3) Of course, Bargnani is still a trade asset. This fact has nothing to do with … whether or not he has ‘provided an inside presence’ for this team, and whether or not he has the type of ‘explosive ahleticism’ and ‘skill set’ that warranted being selected with the 2006 No. 1 Overall NBA Draft by the Raptors.

    Hope you have yourself … a terrific day!

    :-)

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